# Star Wars: The Last Jedi - seen it thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441 "2017-12-13T21:50:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/781 "2018-01-02T19:26:42Z")
Saw it on Saturday. I have middling interest in the continuity and character development issues; perhaps I’ll dive into that debate later. But there’s one point that I haven’t seen anyone else make. Space opera needs to have space aliens and robots. I hold this truth to be self-evident. What’s the point of space opera without fun characters that look different from what you see in any other type of movie? The original trilogy got this. There were lots of alient characters that were perfectly designed for their role in the story: Chewbacca, Yoda, Jabba the Hutt, etc… And there were two droids as major characters. _The Force Awakens,_ _Rogue One_, and _The Last Jedi_ have introduced a total of zero major alien characters, and I don’t understand why this is. It seems like something that they would obviously want to plan for when they started storyboarding the new movies. Aliens are relegated to the background. Meanwhile BB-8 is more like a prop than a character. K-2SO in _Rogue One_ is good, but he’s the only one. Overall, I was disappointed. I found the whole movie to be too long and too crammed with stuff: montages, flashbacks, telepathic conversations, nuns who look like frogs, Luke milking what appears to be a crossbreed of a walrus and an elephant. It does not flow continuously as entertainment like the original trilogy does. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/782 "2018-01-02T19:31:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s a beautifully Shakespearean tragedy… she is upset at him, so she is more curt in her interactions with him than she otherwise would have been. He then thinks there is no plan at all, so screws everything up. Their weaknesses amplify each other to nearly destroy the resistance. > > Trouble is… I just don’t think that’s what we saw on screen. Laura Dern is a fantastic actress. If she were trying to convey “of course there’s a plan, but I’m so angry with you that I’m letting that anger get the better of me and shutting you down”, I think she could have done it. Instead, her character at that point just seems like “generic faceless bureaucrat who keeps him in the dark purely because that’s what the plot demands”. > > But… this is probably just a YMMV issue at this point. I guess so. I pretty clearly remember her giving him an ass-chewing, mentioning his demotion, mentioning all his character flaws, mentioning how he got people killed. When she finally acknowledged him, it was chilly as hell: I very much got the impression that it was personal. (Her later line, where she said, “I like him,” was what I found to be out of character, given her previous antipathy to him). > [@RikWriter](#): > > Not really. Those bombers were so slow (not to mention ridiculous), they’d have been massacred just as easily running away as going ahead with the mission. Says you. Not what Organa or Holdo said. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/783 "2018-01-02T20:44:57Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Speaking of the First Order fleet, where’d those new-fangled AT-ATs and stuff come from to harass the rebel base? I don’t think that Ren & Hux’s vehicle was large enough to hold them, was it? Did they dropship them down a mile or two away and make them walk the rest of the way to the base for dramatic effect? > > Probably because it’d be boring but they never really get into what the Empire or First Order means to the average Joe. Are there layers upon layers of hierarchy to the point where the mayor of Desert Dirt Farmville is a FO loyalist selected by the district bureaucrat who was selected by the regional administrator selected by the planetary head who was empowered by the solar system leader who reports to Snoke (or whoever)? Or is it just that planetary government has to pay tithes/taxes to the First Order and provide resources/manpower when directed but is otherwise largely doing its own thing? I mean, everyone everywhere largely wants to raise the kids and pay the mortgage regardless of who is in charge but doing so harder when some spaceship arrives and says they’re going to turn your town into a mineral mine and, by the way, you’re all First Order mineral miners now getting paid 15¢ an hour. Your opinion on who is in charge suddenly changes at that point. I would be interested in knowing the answer to these questions myself. Implicit in them is one of the reasons for my skepticism that the First Order could re-establish dominance over the entire galaxy so soon after the fall of the Empire. A fairly clever detail, I thought, in the early going of the original “Star Wars” movie was that the Senate had not at that point yet been dissolved because the Empire was still was relying on the bureaucracy left over from the Republic to actually administrate things. Tarkin explains that with the Death Star, they won’t need that bureaucracy any more because they can rule by fear. By the same token, then, we should be skeptical of the First Order’s ability to control that many planets and star systems without a threat on that level. And that actually applies to ESB, come to think of it; but it’s a greater problem in the newer movies because they are shown to be doing so before getting a new planetkiller, as well as continuing to do in this new movie after its destruction in TFA. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/784 "2018-01-02T21:29:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Says you. Not what Organa or Holdo said. Unfortunately, their characters were very poorly served by a very bad script ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/785 "2018-01-02T21:49:04Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Unfortunately, their characters were very poorly served by a very bad script There’s a loop going on here, but if it pleases you to hate the movie, I’ll not stand in the way of your pleasure :). ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/786 "2018-01-02T23:26:09Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Unfortunately, their characters were very poorly served by a very bad script I had held Rian Johnson in high esteem, which raised my hopes for TLJ; but that was mostly because of an episode of _Breaking Bad_ he directed that is widely considered the single greatest episode of TV ever made. That, however, was not written by him; TLJ was. I hadn’t realized until now that he wrote _Looper_, a movie that also had cool aspects but ultimately didn’t make a lick of sense. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/787 "2018-01-03T01:17:19Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Actually, that’s inaccurate as well. He didn’t beam anything to the enemy, Rose and Finn were stupid enough to let some criminal they’d just met hear the transmission and then he predictably betrayed them. The two of them were just as stupid as Holdo, but with more reason since they’re both low-level nobodies and she’s an admiral. How about not transmitting the super secret plans to ANYONE on the enemy ship? You know, like normal people. It’s fine to be a Poe apologist, but I’m wondering why someone who hated the film so much is willing to defend Poe to such a degree and insist that other characters were the stupid ones. Why no Poe Hate? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/788 "2018-01-03T02:45:26Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > How about not transmitting the super secret plans to ANYONE on the enemy ship? You know, like normal people. > > It’s fine to be a Poe apologist, but I’m wondering why someone who hated the film so much is willing to defend Poe to such a degree and insist that other characters were the stupid ones. Why no Poe Hate? No, I agree, Poe was an idiot. But they KNEW he was a hot-head and then put him in a position where he was likely to do something hot-headed. When you have someone like that, you have to manage them, not ignore them. That was what a real, competent leader would do. The thing is, I have no expectations for Poe; he’s a fucking X-Wing pilot. Leia is the leader of the Resistance and Holdo is a Vice Admiral. They’re supposed to be experienced, competent leaders. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/789 "2018-01-03T02:47:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s a loop going on here, but if it pleases you to hate the movie, I’ll not stand in the way of your pleasure :). I don’t hate the movie, I hate the fact that it had the capacity to be so much better—it teased us with a much better movie. The scenes with Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren were excellent. Then it all fell apart any time Finn, Rose and Poe were on the screen. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/790 "2018-01-03T03:09:56Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I don’t hate the movie, I hate the fact that it had the capacity to be so much better—it teased us with a much better movie. The scenes with Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren were excellent. Then it all fell apart any time Finn, Rose and Poe were on the screen. Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/791 "2018-01-03T09:19:51Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No, I agree, Poe was an idiot. But they KNEW he was a hot-head and then put him in a position where he was likely to do something hot-headed. When you have someone like that, you have to manage them, not ignore them. That was what a real, competent leader would do. The thing is, I have no expectations for Poe; he’s a fucking X-Wing pilot. Leia is the leader of the Resistance and Holdo is a Vice Admiral. They’re supposed to be experienced, competent leaders. Thing is, the military Does Not Work Like That. Especially not during engagements. You do expect people not to be idiots to the point of disobeying direct orders in battle, or beaming critical plans over to operatives on the enemy flagship. Who has no need of them. Which is really so far beyond normal OPSEC that I have no words. The fact that they are there because Poe again disobeyed a direct order to put them there is just icing on the cake. People like that do not get Managed. Its not like a business or government bureaucracy. In the military, managing these people means demoting them and keeping critical information away from them. Which is exactly what happened. To me, it seems clear that Poes combination of personal popularity and cockpit skills got him promoted way, way beyond his competence. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/792 "2018-01-03T09:41:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s a reasonably consistent explanation for almost everything… I just don’t see any reason to think that that’s what’s actually being portrayed on screen. In other words, that’s a truly excellent fanwank… but still a fanwank. > > (That said, two quibbles: (a) she certainly could have told Poe “of course there’s a plan, but it’s a secret” instead of acting like she was a bumbling moron, and (b) Poe has been described as the greatest pilot in the resistance, and was crucially involved in defeating StarKiller Base just days earlier. I assume that when German officers showed up to take command of an air base in WWI and one of the pilots there was Manfred “The Red Baron” von Richtofen, they didn’t immediately start out by actively treating him with distrust. Again, not an obstacle that can not be overcome, but something that should be acknowledged on film.) Well, it is partially a fanwank. The bit about Holdo being career military operating in a resistance made up of zealots and individualists. It just makes everything make much more sense when viewed through that lens. And the spy possibility is extrapolation. However, what is fact is that Poe turned out to be the worst possible person in the resistance to have access to sensitive information. The FO didn’t actually need a spy, Poe was on the case. Also that Poe just got demoted for disobeying a direct order in battle leading to a catastrophic loss. And he got in her face demanding to know secret plans while trying to take advantage of the massacre of the bridge crew to get out of the demotion. Really, he did at no point impress her as a trustworthy person. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/793 "2018-01-03T09:44:45Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > . . . > > To me, it seems clear that Poes combination of personal popularity and cockpit skills got him promoted way, way beyond his competence. Or, he could be a misogynist who was promoted by male supervisors in whom he put his trust, but feels free to flout the orders of females. He clearly had no respect for what Leia or Holdo told him, nor trust in their thought processes. I can understand Leia’s leniency though. She had Luke for a brother and was married to Han ferchrissakes. Her tolerance for maverick behavior must be off the map. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/794 "2018-01-03T09:48:19Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Or, he could be a misogynist who was promoted by male supervisors in whom he put his trust, but feels free to flout the orders of females. He clearly had no respect for what Leia or Holdo told him, nor trust in their thought processes. > > I can understand Leia’s leniency though. She had Luke for a brother and was married to Han ferchrissakes. Her tolerance for maverick behavior must be off the map. That is true. She also had a history of experiencing low-probability maverick gambles paying off, which may have skewered her judgement. Poe may have risen trough the ranks under Leia, and had no idea what it was like to be expected to be a professional and not a substitute Han. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/795 "2018-01-03T12:45:29Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Thing is, the military Does Not Work Like That. Apparently we have different experiences in the military. There are plenty of idiots out there and some of them are soldiers, and as an officer, even a junior one, you have to be prepared to manage them. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/796 "2018-01-03T14:24:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Her later line, where she said, “I like him,” was what I found to be out of character, given her previous antipathy to him. Chicks dig bad boys. Some attitudes are universal, even a long time ago and far, far away. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/797 "2018-01-03T14:27:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Chicks dig bad boys. Some attitudes are universal, even a long time ago and far, far away. Yep. My XX chromosomes make me all swoony for guys who get lots of people killed. They’re dreamy! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/798 "2018-01-03T15:42:46Z")
Crap, is that what I’ve been doing wrong? I need to go kick a puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/799 "2018-01-03T15:55:45Z")
I admit I’m not totally sure I recall this correctly, but didn’t Poe’s earlier defiance of authority end up effectively saving the rebellion, or at least the _Raddus_ with apparently all the big shots on it? Wasn’t the First Order’s dreadnought just lining up its big guns to take out the _Raddus_ as it was destroyed by the bomber? Although thinking about it, maybe they’d long since jumped to hyperspace if Poe hadn’t refused to call off the attack… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441/800 "2018-01-03T16:01:55Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I watch things all the time where I care about the outcome because I care about the characters who are on one side and don’t care about the characters on another side. So while I agree that the stakes would be lower, I don’t think that has to mean that the story isn’t worth telling. There are many stories worth telling that wouldn’t interest anybody outside a small circle of friends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-last-jedi-seen-it-thread/804441.md?page=41)