# Star Wars The Rise of Skywalker (SPOILERS!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059 "2019-12-19T01:52:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/361 "2020-01-06T18:42:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s a wonderful term from LARPing (originally a CS term, but used differently) - “that’s below the abstraction layer”. I thoroughly embrace it and it’s improved my enjoyment of all SF media no end. > > And it’s not unique to SF, it handily deals with useless questions like “How do sitcom characters afford those huge houses?” and “why no toilets on the Enterprise?” and “how do TV detectives survive so many knockouts without permanent brain damage?” > > “Who made the space dagger” is in no way, shape or form a “fundamental”. Mysteries we never know the answer are more realistic than everything wrapped up in a bow. And more pleasing for it - at least, IMO they are. I can accept not learning the answer to a mystery, so long as I feel confident that there \*is \*an answer. However, in most cases, it’s patently obvious that the writer just couldn’t be arsed to think of one, and that’s not mysterious - it’s just lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/362 "2020-01-06T19:16:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Who says it was made by a Dark Sider? It’s a dagger that belonged to a Sith Inquistor - I’m pretty sure it’s the same one he used to kill Rey’s parents. The knife is covered in forbidden Sith runes. It has secret instructions to a Sith artifact, which itself also has secret instructions on how to find a secret Sith homeworld. The artifact is hidden inside the ruins of a planet-killing space station built by a Sith Master. The space station was built - and destroyed - during a period when there were virtually no Light Side Users left in the galaxy. I’m guessing it was made by a Sith, or at least someone working for one. Anyway, if it was made by a Light Side user, that just makes the situation even more ridiculous. At least a Dark Sider has a reason to keep Palpatine’s hidden Star Destroyer factory a secret, even it the logic there is pretty shaky. Why would a Light Sider keep that secret? Why wouldn’t they tell the galaxy, immediately, and do everything they could to crush Palpatine’s fleet before it’s ready to strike? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/363 "2020-01-06T19:33:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s a dagger that belonged to a Sith Inquistor - I’m pretty sure it’s the same one he used to kill Rey’s parents. I thought the film made that explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/364 "2020-01-06T19:38:16Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I thought the film made that explicit. That’s my recollection, but I might be mis-remembering. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/365 "2020-01-06T19:48:50Z")
I usually like stuff like this, but the knife thing was just dumb. Another thing that needed like 5 more minutes added to it (or excluded entirely) but got the “a good question for another time” treatment. Purely there for a cool visual, that, imo, wasn’t cool enough to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/366 "2020-01-06T20:12:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is an inherent problem in a lot of these, “Unravel clues to find the lost treasure,” type plots. If you don’t want anyone to find your treasure, why would you leave all these clues and puzzles pointing to it? That was the same problem I had with Abram’s first movie in this series. If Luke Skywalker has gone into hiding and isolation, why the hell would he leave behind a map and split it into segments? Or if he didn’t make the map, who did and why? It seemed like Abrams was working from a Mad Libs template: Go to (desert planet) to retrieve (droid) carrying (object). “Hmmm, Jakku, BB-8, and uh… well Starkiller Base plans would be too obvious of a rip-off… um, how about a map to a guy who deliberately does not want to be found.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/367 "2020-01-06T21:09:58Z")
I read a shit-ton of science fiction, including the Pew-Pew Space Wizard variety. I just finished reading a novel about space mushrooms that turn people into zombies, and it didn’t stop getting ridiculous from there. I’m totally fine with adding additional technology, or magic, or physics, or whatever. And I’m fine with having aliens that act, well, **alien**. But when humans, or human-adjacent beings, act in ways that are alien, it is, at best, a laughing-at-the-author-not-with-the-author moment. This movie was chockablock with moments like that. I could enjoy them, but it felt like I was having fun at the expense of the movie, not because of the movie. Abrams clearly differs, and that’s cool, but it’s not going to stop my thinking he’s a lazy, sloppy writer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/368 "2020-01-06T21:18:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The problem with the knife isn’t, “How did they guy who made it know where to stand.” The guy who made the knife is the guy who decided where you had to stand to use it to find the throne room. The problems with the knife are: > > 1. How does _Rey_ know where to stand so it lines up? But “Because the Force” is an acceptable answer here, based on what we know the Force can do. (I don’t think that’s the intended answer - I think this is just a pretty common trope in sloppy adventure films - but it works with what’s been established in this universe. > > 2. Who was the knife intended for? This is an inherent problem in a lot of these, “Unravel clues to find the lost treasure,” type plots. If you don’t want anyone to find your treasure, why would you leave all these clues and puzzles pointing to it? Palpatine has this super secret military base building huge numbers of ships that he doesn’t want anyone to find accidentally - why would he leave clues to this thing lying around? When he’s ready to unleash his new fleet, why not just… unleash it? Why wait until someone follows his breadcrumbs to him? Why risk the wrong person finding those breadcrumbs when you’re not ready, and screwing up your plan? > > 3. That plan relies a whole lot on a pile of wreckage sitting in a storm-wracked ocean for decades holding exactly the same silhouette for that entire time. These are all the questions I had meant to ask with mine, which apparently was ill-put. And also, if the answer is “in the very throne room where the emperor was putatively killed,” then that’s not a very good hiding place. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/369 "2020-01-06T21:24:42Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > That was the same problem I had with Abram’s first movie in this series. If Luke Skywalker has gone into hiding and isolation, why the hell would he leave behind a map and split it into segments? Or if he didn’t make the map, who did and why? It seemed like Abrams was working from a Mad Libs template: Go to (desert planet) to retrieve (droid) carrying (object). “Hmmm, Jakku, BB-8, and uh… well Starkiller Base plans would be too obvious of a rip-off… um, how about a map to a guy who deliberately does not want to be found.” Also: how did he even get there without an astromech droid? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/370 "2020-01-06T21:29:48Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > That was the same problem I had with Abram’s first movie in this series. If Luke Skywalker has gone into hiding and isolation, why the hell would he leave behind a map and split it into segments? Or if he didn’t make the map, who did and why? It seemed like Abrams was working from a Mad Libs template: Go to (desert planet) to retrieve (droid) carrying (object). “Hmmm, Jakku, BB-8, and uh… well Starkiller Base plans would be too obvious of a rip-off… um, how about a map to a guy who deliberately does not want to be found.” I thought the similarity of the plot (and similar lines of dialogue) of this movie to that of the original 1977 Star Wars film were meant as an homage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/371 "2020-01-06T21:40:51Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You’re right. Obviously it was a light-sider who inscribed it with sith runes because they didn’t want to make it _too_ easy. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s a dagger that belonged to a Sith Inquistor - I’m pretty sure it’s the same one he used to kill Rey’s parents. The knife is covered in forbidden Sith runes. It has secret instructions to a Sith artifact, which itself also has secret instructions on how to find a secret Sith homeworld. The artifact is hidden inside the ruins of a planet-killing space station built by a Sith Master. The space station was built - and destroyed - during a period when there were virtually no Light Side Users left in the galaxy. > > I’m guessing it was made by a Sith, or at least someone working for one. > > Anyway, if it was made by a Light Side user, that just makes the situation even more ridiculous. At least a Dark Sider has a reason to keep Palpatine’s hidden Star Destroyer factory a secret, even it the logic there is pretty shaky. Why would a Light Sider keep that secret? Why wouldn’t they tell the galaxy, immediately, and do everything they could to crush Palpatine’s fleet before it’s ready to strike? Neither of you seem to be down with the concept of Destiny. Or how the Force seems to work - who says the maker knows where the Sith planet is? All he needs to know is the coordinates of the Moon and the shape for the dagger. We don’t know when it was made. So when the DSII was destroyed is irrelevant to how many Light Siders there were when it was made. Not that _I_ said it was made by a Light Sider, anyway. Gray Force users are also canonical. Everyone seems to assume Ochi knew how to use the dagger, and it was made for or by him. But possibly it was just made for him to have on him when he died, so Rey could find it. Destiny. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/372 "2020-01-06T21:47:33Z")
If it makes you feel better that the force birthed the dagger ex nihilo or bestowed muselike upon some rando the urge to create it, then cool. I think both of those ideas are incredibly unsatisfying for the world Star Wars created. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/373 "2020-01-06T21:53:02Z")
If destiny plays such a big part in the story the writer should own up to it, not treat it with a shrug. We should accept it as part of the story. Have the characters comment on how unlikely events are, and have other characters say things like “I think we were \*meant \*to find it” or “The Force works in mysterious ways” or “I feel like something has been guiding us to this place” only with, you know, fewer cliches. If you’re going to write a contrived plot, at least to convince the viewers you’re doing it on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/374 "2020-01-06T21:59:39Z")
Palpatine was _trying_ to get Rey to come to the hidden Sith world. I chalked up most of the above nitpicks to “Palpatine was leaving breadcrumbs for Rey.” To paraphrase a line from an unrelated movie, laying a trail of breadcrumbs impossible to follow except for Rey. I don’t think Palpatine was counting on her having a bunch of friends, though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/375 "2020-01-06T22:28:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Neither of you seem to be down with the concept of Destiny. Or how the Force seems to work - who says the maker knows where the Sith planet is? All he needs to know is the coordinates of the Moon and the shape for the dagger. > > We don’t know when it was made. So when the DSII was destroyed is irrelevant to how many Light Siders there were when it was made. > > Not that _I_ said it was made by a Light Sider, anyway. Gray Force users are also canonical. > > Everyone seems to assume Ochi knew how to use the dagger, and it was made for or by him. But possibly it was just made for him to have on him when he died, so Rey could find it. Destiny. I’m down with the concept of destiny, but determinism is a harder sell. I’m okay with the idea that it was Luke’s destiny to face his father and the Emperor. I don’t care for the idea that he was preordained to win there. I like the bits in Star Wars where seeing the future is a chaotic and confusing exercise, that doesn’t really give you any clear direction on how to proceed, and which is likely to bite you in the ass if you try to alter your current behavior to change what you saw in your vision. I’m less enthused by the idea that someone had a vision of the future that was so clear that they could design a knife such that when a specific person stood in just the right spot, and held the knife at just the right angle, the blade would match up with the random jumble of wreckage half-submerged in the sea - but not a sufficiently precise vision that they could just do away with all the fetch-quest nonsense and directly tell people the information they needed when they needed to know it. Most of all, I really don’t like the idea that the Force itself wanted Rey to win. I don’t like a Force that’s got that level of intention behind it, that is picking sides in the struggle between light and dark. The real problem with the dagger isn’t that they didn’t say where it came from, so much as all the possible answers for where it came from are kinda dumb. It doesn’t make sense for it to have been made by Palpatine or his minions, because if he wants them to know how to get to Exegol, he could just tell them. It doesn’t make sense for it to have been made by a Light Side user, because why would a Light Side user keep Sith secrets for them? And having it be made spontaneously by someone who had no idea what it was for, and just made it that way out of intuition, is approaching _Signs_ level of contrived fuckwittery. > [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Palpatine was _trying_ to get Rey to come to the hidden Sith world. I chalked up most of the above nitpicks to “Palpatine was leaving breadcrumbs for Rey.” To paraphrase a line from an unrelated movie, laying a trail of breadcrumbs impossible to follow except for Rey. I don’t think Palpatine was counting on her having a bunch of friends, though. 😉 Why make a big scavenger hunt out of it, though? Why not just phone up Rey and say, “Hey, this is Palpatine. I’m in Exegol, building Star Destroyers. Come and get me!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/376 "2020-01-06T22:42:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why make a big scavenger hunt out of it, though? Why not just phone up Rey and say, “Hey, this is Palpatine. I’m in Exegol, building Star Destroyers. Come and get me!” Because Rey wouldn’t need the Force to smell a trap if he invited her. :smack: It all has to look like clues for a home-bound Sith so she thinks she’s found something by her own abilities. Sorta like the movie I was paraphrasing, where (spoiler for _Skyfall_ if such a thing is still needed): James Bond is asking Q to leave a trail for the bad guy to follow him to his safehouse, but a very subtle trail so the bad guy thinks he’s actually found something he’s not supposed to, rather than being led by the nose to exactly where Bond intends. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/377 "2020-01-06T23:00:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why make a big scavenger hunt out of it, though? Why not just phone up Rey and say, “Hey, this is Palpatine. I’m in Exegol, building Star Destroyers. Come and get me!” Or, “Hey, it’s your long-lost grandpa. I’ve been looking for you for so long. Please come and see me. We can hang out, get to know each other, and go for ice cream after. I’ve got all kinds of cool toys, and a puppy, too!” ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/378 "2020-01-06T23:44:28Z")
The knife is an ancient Sith relic that points to the Emperors Death Star office space from 30 years ago, after it got blown into a million pieces, fell into the atmosphere to a meteoric impact into the ocean. The office remains undisturbed all these years even though we know scavengers are all over this kind of war wreckage. The Death Star itself would be the choicest bulk wreckage and any Imperial lodgings would be prime targets for artifact hunters. Yet, the room is untouched. And everything still works. Remember, Palppy left that throne room in a hurry, and sort of had his own explosion. But it holds the key to finding him decades later. So, it’s a knife needed to get back to Palppy, once he found Rey, but he used it to kill her parents, after finding them on Jakku, and presumably that was the spaceship she was running after in the first film? But the guy didn’t look back, so, I guess she lucked out. Here’s another thing. Palps first plan is for Kylo to kill Rey. Then he needs her to take on all his Sithyness. Then he’s wants to drain Kylo and Rey together. The problem with 2/3 of that is Rey is his last descendent, or so we think. The speculation is he had kids while he was a normal looking senator. But maybe he thinks after killing Rey he can start over. Hit the bars, get on tinder, meet someone special edition. Yeah, he’d still be a good catch. Or maybe he has hundreds of offspring out there. The next trilogy could be _The Haram of Sheev_. Since I’m on a somewhat related tangent, you know what would really be horrible? If it is called _Rise of Skywalker_ and Rey calls herself Rey Skywalker is because she is carrying Luke’s children. Gross. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/379 "2020-01-07T00:03:33Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Because Rey wouldn’t need the Force to smell a trap if he invited her. :smack: It all has to look like clues for a home-bound Sith so she thinks she’s found something by her own abilities. Sorta like the movie I was paraphrasing, where (spoiler for _Skyfall_ if such a thing is still needed): > > James Bond is asking Q to leave a trail for the bad guy to follow him to his safehouse, but a very subtle trail so the bad guy thinks he’s actually found something he’s not supposed to, rather than being led by the nose to exactly where Bond intends. Okay, skip the personal invitation - just suddenly bust out in the universe and start blasting planets. If you want the last Jedi to come to you so you can make them evil, that would probably do it! Plus, multiple planetary genocides would seem ideal for making a Jedi angry enough to start lashing out in anger at you, which is a big plus in the whole “turning them to the Dark Side” thing. Plus, you don’t have to risk Rey showing up with a fleet of space ships and blowing your big plan out of the sky before its ready. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059/380 "2020-01-07T00:13:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Plus, multiple planetary genocides would seem ideal for making a Jedi angry enough to start lashing out in anger at you, which is a big plus in the whole “turning them to the Dark Side” thing. I don’t understand; when do you interrupt her to helpfully explain that, if she angrily slashes you, then you’ll get to possess her body? Why, in _this_ scenario, you may not get that all-important chance to warn her by running your mouth! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-spoilers/845059.md?page=20)