# Star Wars VII, VIII, IX possibly to be retconned away {Warning Spoilers for other Star Wars movies} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [June 30, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809 "2020-06-30T16:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/462 "2021-07-13T20:09:14Z")
I strenuously avoid getting involved in arguments of Rian Johnson’s attempt to depict war scenes; it’s basically like trying to ask historian of classical Greece what he or she thinks of _300_: at best they will turn purple and collapse in a sputtering fury of expletives. The ship is the least significant part of all this. You could presumably just stick engines on a rock, or a huge slab of metal, and do the same thing. We’ve had torpedoes for 150 years IRL now. And I’m pretty sure I recall those being in _A New Hope_. Now, in fiction, I could probably come up with three or four decent ideas for why it usable now but usually isn’t. But that’s all fan-wank. The screenwriter evidently didn’t care, so why should the viewer? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/463 "2021-07-13T20:29:53Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > Now, in fiction, I could probably come up with three or four decent ideas for why it usable now but usually isn’t. But that’s all fan-wank. The screenwriter evidently didn’t care, so why should the viewer? Exactly. When a story involves putting the heroes in a hopeless position, it raises the tension a lot and it’s fascinating to see how they manage to extricate themselves. When the solution they find is to suddenly remember they have a “press this button to win” box (that was never mentioned before), it’s a huge disappointment, and also means it’s going to be much harder to raise the tension going forwards. And to then in the next movie blatantly handwave it; not even bother to give an in-universe plausible explanation or continuation just shows contempt for the audience. And yeah, means I for one as a casual Star Wars fan, am not going to bother to think about the logic of the series any more, because there is none. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/464 "2021-07-13T21:43:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Would that be episode 4 with Greedo shooting first, simultaneously, or not at all? Episode 6 with Sebastian Shaw or Hayden Christensen at the end? > 🙂 As a Christian, I’m perfectly comfortable with a canon that unmistakably contradicts itself in numerous places. I find it quite meaningful regardless. This is similar: the original trilogy is a great series of movies, quite exciting and enjoyable to watch regardless of such details as you bring up. Do them one way, do them the other, either way they’re still great. The only reason I got into an esoteric debate over when Star Wars was retitled A New Hope was that the claim that this had happened in 1981 was so obviously _wrong_, and sometimes you’ve gotta call out bullshit, especially when if it had been true, it would have been unavoidable for you at the time. People would have been arguing about that, instead of about the best way to solve a Rubik’s Cube. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/465 "2021-07-13T22:30:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The only reason I got into an esoteric debate over when Star Wars was retitled A New Hope was that the claim that this had happened in 1981 was so obviously _wrong_… Only from a certain point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/466 "2021-07-13T22:50:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The only reason I got into an esoteric debate over when Star Wars was retitled A New Hope was that the claim that this had happened in 1981 was so obviously _wrong_ , You had me until here, I was there, I saw it on the screen. Not only did the name change, but there were several subtle changes (not to Greedo’s itchy trigger finger - yet!) that stuck out. We noticed them right away. Distant early warning signs of Lucas’ later butchery of the films and claiming “it’s always been that way.” Starlog, July 1980, interview with Gary Kurtz: > Star Wars was originally to have been titled _Star Wars Episode 4 -The [sic] New Hope_. The episode title was dropped because it wes felt it would be too confusing…George Lucas revealed during an interview in San Francisco that _Star Wars III_ will be the final installment of the _middle_ trilogy, and that it will complete the story of Luke Skywalker. Lucas then hoped to film the _first_ trilogy - _The Clone Wars_ - which features the adventures of Luke’s father, his then-friend Darth Vader and the young Ben (Obi-Wan) Kenobi. > Lucas and Kurtz estimate it will take up to twenty years to film all **NINE** [emphasis mine] of the Star Wars stories. Starlog, Sept 1982: > Article is titled “Episode IV: A New Hope” > On Friday, August 13, 1983, Episode IV of the _Star Wars_ saga returns to your neighborhood movie screen. Sometimes, you gotta call out the bullshit. Indeed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/467 "2021-07-13T23:07:08Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Not only did the name change, but there were several subtle changes (not to Greedo’s itchy trigger finger - yet!) that stuck out. The missing blast doors joke? We noticed that one during the 1982 re-release, which we saw in order to catch the first preview for _Revenge_ of the Jedi. That was also the first time I or any of my geeky friends saw the words “A New Hope”. We figured Lucas was going to have to retroactively add something after ESB was Episode V, but managed to go a year after the 1981 reissue without hearing what it was. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/468 "2021-07-14T01:20:49Z")
> [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](#): > > The missing blast doors joke? Most definitely. I think some scene transitions were changed as well. Not a lot, but it was there. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/469 "2021-07-14T02:19:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > When the solution they find is to suddenly remember they have a “press this button to win” box (that was never mentioned before), it’s a huge disappointment Mister Meeseeks, defeat the First Order! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/470 "2021-07-14T10:25:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Only from a certain point of view. As opposed to your POV, which is that this one easily overlooked thing in the crawl of the third or fourth re-release was the only thing that mattered, and everything else didn’t. Seriously, dude. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Starlog Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/471 "2021-07-14T10:33:16Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Mister Meeseeks, defeat the First Order! Wowee! Can do! ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/472 "2021-07-14T11:09:13Z")
The title was officially changed by Lucasfilm in 1981. Whether fans and critics registered it immediately or not, or ignored it or not, that was and is the title. As the prequels and sequels were made, the name ‘Star Wars’ by itself became ambiguous, so most people now call it ‘A New Hope’, or ‘the _original_ Star Wars movie’. ‘Star Wars’ by itself is the name of the franchise. The poster for the 20th anniversary Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition showed the original title. And the posters for ESB and RoTJ in that particular edition didn’t show episode numbers (though the crawls in the movies did). However, that was not an official title change back, it was only for retrospective nostalgia. You can choose to call it whatever you like, but if you say to anyone today, ‘I enjoyed Star Wars’, they’ll ask, ‘Which one?’ or ‘All of them?’ ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/473 "2021-07-14T13:30:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not to mention the A-Wing that takes out the bridge of the Executor in RotJ. I love that scene, because if you listen really closely to the cheers of Admiral Ackbar’s crew, you hear some guy yelling, “DIE, DICKHEADS!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/474 "2021-07-14T13:58:00Z")
Lots of series have the same name as the first installment of the series. Or sometimes some other installment, like the second. And sometimes when a series has a different name from all of its installments, the name of one or the other is changed in popular parlance to match. It doesn’t cause confusion in any of those other cases. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/475 "2021-07-14T14:07:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It doesn’t cause confusion in any of those other cases. It doesn’t cause confusion in this case either, except to certain people! 😀 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/476 "2021-07-14T14:25:11Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Starlog, July 1980, interview with Gary Kurtz: I am skeptical of their claims made years AFTER Star Wars made a brazillion dollars. There is curiously little contemporaneous evidence that at the time he made Star Wars, Lucas planned for it to be Part IV, and considerable narrative evidence nothing was plotted out beyond the first movie - one really does not get the sense “Return of the Jedi” was planned out ahead of time. He’s changed his story many times over the years. As to what its title was, adding “Episode IV” to the crawl does not change the title of the movie. Movie titles are actually governed by certain conventions and such, and that isn’t how a movie is titled. They did change the title in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/477 "2021-07-14T14:40:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am skeptical of their claims made years AFTER Star Wars made a brazillion dollars. I quoted an earlier interview pre-Empire that said the same thing. Maybe they made it up in 1980, or maybe he’s telling the truth. As to the title change, I SAW IT ON THE SCREEN, no later than 1983. This isn’t “anecdote”, this is eye-witness testimony. I’m not the only one. I’m not even sure why this is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/478 "2021-07-14T14:58:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Heh. Que? It was a legitimate magazine. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/479 "2021-07-14T15:26:53Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > As to the title change, I SAW IT ON THE SCREEN, no later than 1983. Yes, they added the words “Episode IV: A New Hope” _to the opening crawl_ in 1980 or 1981 (not sure which, but it was then.) But the movie was still being sold and titled as “Star Wars.” Again, there are formal conventions as to how movies are titled. The crawl isn’t the film’s title. The (1997, I believe) re-release was the first movie formally titled “Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope.” I mean, Lucas just lies non stop about this stuff, I don’t know why anyone would buy what he says; he still maintains with a straight face that Han ALWAYS shot Greedo first and the original version was just “confusing.” It’s his movie, he can change it all he wants. (Well, I guess it’s Disney’s movie now.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/480 "2021-07-14T15:59:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > Only from a certain point of view. > > As opposed to your POV… Just FYI, but that was a quote from one of the movies. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/481 "2021-07-14T16:14:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, they added the words “Episode IV: A New Hope” _to the opening crawl_ in 1980 or 1981 (not sure which, but it was then.) But the movie was still being sold and titled as “Star Wars.” Again, there are formal conventions as to how movies are titled. The crawl isn’t the film’s title. Do you have a cite for that? Every source I’ve looked at says it was retitled in 1981. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=25)