# Star Wars VII, VIII, IX possibly to be retconned away {Warning Spoilers for other Star Wars movies} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [June 30, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809 "2020-06-30T16:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/482 "2021-07-14T16:15:54Z")
Girls, girls, you’re both pretty! ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/483 "2021-07-14T17:25:29Z")
For fuck’s sake people. Referring to the 1977 movie as _Star Wars_ is reasonable. Referring to it as _A New Hope_ or _Episode 4_ is also reasonable. The only things that’s are unreasonable are: (a) getting insanely huffy or pretentious or self-satisfied or superior about which terminology you use or (b) not acknowledging that there are contexts or justifications for using the other terminology ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/484 "2021-07-14T17:41:48Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The only things that’s are unreasonable are: > (a) getting insanely huffy or pretentious or self-satisfied or superior about which terminology you use > or > (b) not acknowledging that there are contexts or justifications for using the other terminology You’re new here, right? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/485 "2021-07-14T19:39:09Z")
Continuing a sequels-related discussion here instead of hijacking [the “suspension of disbelief” thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-willing-suspension-of-disbelief-stop/945746/168): > [@Where does your ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ stop?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/where-does-your-willing-suspension-of-disbelief-stop/945746/169): > > Rey grew up as some sort of indentured laborer making a living from scrap. I could maybe see her picking up enough piloting skills to re-park or transport vehicles around the lot under close supervision, but I don’t really buy her employer giving her the freedom to just go hot-dogging across the galaxy, or zooming through canyons. Rey doesn’t appear to be an indentured servant. When we first see her as an adult, she’s living on her own, and bartering with the scrap guy. We learn in the third movie that she was left there by parents who cared for her, but couldn’t keep her because of the danger they were in, so its unlikely they _sold_ her. More likely, they paid him, probably with the understanding that they’d be back to get her when it was safe. After a few years, when its clear they aren’t coming back, it’s “Time to start earning your keep.” Instead of, “close supervision,” I imagine it more like, “Pilot this ship over to Outpost 17 and drop it off with the Rodian. Here’s ten credits for the bantha ride back. See you in three days.” And Rey’s, like, twelve years old. > [@](#): > > Finn says he works in “sanitation” . While perhaps this is just punishment, or maybe all stormtroopers have second jobs because the First Order can’t afford contract laborers, it still doesn’t lend itself towards having a lot of extensive training in melee combat as a shock trooper. Well, [this guy](https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/First-Order-Riot-Control-Stormtroopers-1536x864-397036155406.jpeg) apparently got some melee training, so it’s something Stormtroopers learn. Finn’s a Stormtrooper. Melee combat remains surprisingly viable despite the high tech settings. Doesn’t seem a stretch to assume the guy who’s been a soldier literally since childhood might have had some training with a sword at some point. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/486 "2021-07-14T19:49:08Z")
It seemed pretty clear to me (as much as anything was clear and consistent in that mess of a “trilogy”) that Finn had been trained since childhood as a combat soldier, just like all the other stormtrooper “recruits”, but he wound up _assigned_ to Sanitation, and didn’t have any real-world combat experience until the mission at the beginning of the _The Force Awakens_. It’s at that point, in his first field duty, as he is ordered to slaughter civilians and his best friend dies and _no one cares_, that he fully groks just what the First Order really is. But, just like the U.S. Marines like to say, “every Marine a rifleman”, in the First Order, “every stormtrooper a fighter”. Even the guys that wind up assigned to Sanitation are expected to pick up a blaster or a vibroblade and go kill on a moment’s notice. All of which is to say, I agree it’s entirely consistent with the way that Finn is depicted in the movies that he would have had training _and_ have had to meet minimum competency standards on blasters and melee weapons. If he were an incompetent combatant, he wouldn’t have been assigned to garbage disposal duties - he would have been put _in_ the garbage disposal. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/487 "2021-07-14T20:04:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Rey doesn’t appear to be an indentured servant. When we first see her as an adult, she’s living on her own, and bartering with the scrap guy. We learn in the third movie that she was left there by parents who cared for her, but couldn’t keep her because of the danger they were in, so its unlikely they _sold_ her. More likely, they paid him, probably with the understanding that they’d be back to get her when it was safe. After a few years, when its clear they aren’t coming back, it’s “Time to start earning your keep.” Instead of, “close supervision,” I imagine it more like, “Pilot this ship over to Outpost 17 and drop it off with the Rodian. Here’s ten credits for the bantha ride back. See you in three days.” And Rey’s, like, twelve years old. It’s funny. In the Original Movie, we see Luke, a farmboy, zipping around in a landspeeder. That’s it. That’s the entirety of his on-screen flight experience. Nothing else is established in dialogue to indicate he’s ever actually flown anything (I know, “used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16”, but what’s a T-16?). He’s clearly completely unfamiliar with the controls of the _Millennium Falcon_’s guns when he jumps into the gun turret, yet seconds later he’s blowing TIE fighters out of space. Later, still with _no_ scenes establishing he has _any_ training or experience flying a ship, he’s assigned to pilot the Galaxy’s most advanced space superiority fighter, in the vanguard of the attack on the Death Star, a mission experienced fighter pilots dismiss as a suicide mission, and he’s immediately winning dogfights, and winds up being one of only three fighters to survive the attack. And yet _no one_ complains about Luke being a Mary Sue for his “unrealistic” piloting skills. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/488 "2021-07-14T20:15:43Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Nothing else is established in dialogue to indicate he’s ever actually flown anything There is one thing. When they’re bargaining with Han in the cantina: Luke: We could buy our own ship for that much! Han: Whose going to fly it? You? Luke: You bet I could! I’m not such a bad pilot myself! But your overall point stands. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/489 "2021-07-14T21:18:20Z")
Good catch. Of course, that was just Luke making an unsubstantiated claim to someone who he thought was a crook trying to gouge them. What we actually see on screen is that Han has to explain to him the basics of the gun turret. And Han also has to explain to Luke not even the basics, but the pre-basics, of hyperspace navigation - he has to explain to Luke why you would even need to make calculations before a hyperspace jump. It’s abundantly clear that whatever experience farmboy Luke has as a pilot, its not with a starship. And yet, he _immediately_ becomes a gunnery ace and then a fighter ace. And that didn’t interfere with my suspension of disbelief, because he’s The Hero in a Pulp Mythic Adventure, _and_ in a world that has an explicit in-universe rationale for cinematic luck, skill, and talent - he’s a natural Force savant. So is Rey. That’s not her being a “Mary Sue”, that’s her recapitulating Luke’s journey, but in a sequel, so everything has to be amped up. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/490 "2021-07-14T22:39:50Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The title was officially changed by Lucasfilm in 1981. Whether fans and critics registered it immediately or not, or ignored it or not, that was and is the title. Cite to the press release? ETA: Serious questions: 1. Do films have ‘official’ names? 2. Assuming the answer to (1) is in the affirmative, how does one distinguish a film’s official name from any unofficial names it might have collected along the way? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/491 "2021-07-14T23:26:04Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The title was officially changed by Lucasfilm in 1981. Whether fans and critics registered it immediately or not, or ignored it or not, that was and is the title. > > As the prequels and sequels were made, the name ‘Star Wars’ by itself became ambiguous, so most people now call it ‘A New Hope’, or ‘the _original_ Star Wars movie’. ‘Star Wars’ by itself is the name of the franchise. > > The poster for the 20th anniversary Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition showed the original title. And the posters for ESB and RoTJ in that particular edition didn’t show episode numbers (though the crawls in the movies did). However, that was not an official title change back, it was only for retrospective nostalgia. > > You can choose to call it whatever you like, but if you say to anyone today, ‘I enjoyed Star Wars’, they’ll ask, ‘Which one?’ or ‘All of them?’ It’s still retconning, no matter how you want to defend it. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/492 "2021-07-14T23:31:14Z")
[![](https://i.imgur.com/HAr1COm.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/HAr1COm.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/493 "2021-07-14T23:37:15Z")
Think of what Mark Hamill says [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onMm0DLg8CE). (It’s about how his hair looked after he was in the trash compactor, but the principal still stands) Skip to 58 seconds, if you don’t feel like sitting through the whole thing. BTW, tell me his impression of Harrison Ford isn’t dead on. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/494 "2021-07-14T23:50:07Z")
“Hey, kid… it ain’t that kinda movie.” ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/495 "2021-07-15T00:29:22Z")
There appear to be some here who are perfectly happy to see entire trilogies wiped from history, but a simple title change is a corruption of all things pure and right. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/496 "2021-07-15T00:41:03Z")
I repeat my previous: Are you new here? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/497 "2021-07-15T00:47:19Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > (I know, “used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16”, but what’s a T-16?). It’s that ship in the background of Luke working with the new droids. The thing Lucas may never have thought of is that the “I used to bullseye womprats” is actually an amazing thing that Luke doesn’t even realize, not just the boasting of a cocky kid who is out of his league in an X wing. He was using the force even then but didn’t know it. Just like his father at 8 years old. It’s why he was so good in his first time in the MF gun turret. That, and that he’s The Hero in a Pulp Mythic Adventure, Marty Stuwalker. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Galactus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galactus/32/3581_2.png) [@Galactus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galactus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/498 "2021-07-15T04:05:58Z")
> **[T-16 Skyhopper](https://www.starwars.com/databank/t-16-skyhopper)** > > A high-performance airspeeder capable of reaching a planet’s troposphere, T-16 skyhoppers were fast and maneuverable – a combination that could be dangerous for young pilots. Luke Skywalker owned a two-man skyhopper, but burned out the... ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/499 "2021-07-15T04:30:27Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > but what’s a T-16? Look at the two screencaps in the first post here: [https://boards.theforce.net/threads/when-did-we-learn-what-a-t-16-skyhopper-was.50051643/](https://boards.theforce.net/threads/when-did-we-learn-what-a-t-16-skyhopper-was.50051643/) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/500 "2021-07-15T04:38:11Z")
Okay, I see that I was ninja’d on the T-16 images, but I also notice that the link mentions some dialogue I had forgotten from the legendary ANH deleted scenes where Wormy was taking to Biggs: LUKE… so I cut off my power, shut down the afterburners and came in low on Deak’s tail. I was so close I thought I was going to fry my instruments. As it was I busted up the skyhopper pretty bad. Uncle Owen was pretty upset. He grounded me for the rest of the season. You should have been there… it was fantastic. BIGGS: You ought to take it a little easy, Luke. You may be the hottest bush pilot this side of Mos Eisley, but those little skyhoppers are dangerous. Keep it up, and one day - whammo: you’re going to be nothing more than a dark spot on the down side of a canyon wall. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/501 "2021-07-15T05:37:33Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Cite to the press release? > > ETA: Serious questions: > > 1. Do films have ‘official’ names? > 2. Assuming the answer to (1) is in the affirmative, how does one distinguish a film’s official name from any unofficial names it might have collected along the way? I don’t know why your reply is directed at me. **RickJay** is the one claiming that films have ‘official names’ besides the name the studio chooses, not me. I don’t believe that, and I asked _him_ for a cite, not you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=26)