# Star Wars VII, VIII, IX possibly to be retconned away {Warning Spoilers for other Star Wars movies} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [June 30, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809 "2020-06-30T16:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/582 "2021-07-16T18:10:49Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I like it, but there’s a point where it has to end, surely. 6 movies looks enough to me, especially given the obvious death at the end of 6. Again, if 9 is perfectly fine then why not 12, 15 etc movies about Palpatine, and no problem bringing him back from the dead because clones. I think it ends when the story of Skywalker ends (which it appears to have done so). I think they are both inexorably tied together. And you know, considering Palpatine came up with the idea of a clone army, it would seem weird if he didn’t consider using cloning to live forever (another tie back to Ep2 and Darth Plagieus) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/583 "2021-07-16T18:13:14Z")
Just bring both back from the dead repeatedly then, and we apparently have good storytelling. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/584 "2021-07-16T18:14:34Z")
The Skywalkers don’t have access to clone technology 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/585 "2021-07-16T18:28:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Obi-Wan deliberately sacrificed himself (IIRC) to be in a state where he would _rarely_ give hands-off advice. Sure, but Obi-Wan was a Light Side Force user. Both his motivations and his method of returning as a Force Ghost are going to be radically different from a Dark Side user. > [@Mijin](#): > > I like it, but there’s a point where it has to end, surely. 6 movies looks enough to me, especially given the obvious death at the end of 6. Again, if 9 is perfectly fine then why not 12, 15 etc movies about Palpatine, and no problem bringing him back from the dead because clones. If nine movies with the same villain is too much, why isn’t six? It gets boring if it starts repeating itself. “Palpatine comes back as a Dark Side Force Ghost,” isn’t repeating itself, it’s presenting something genuinely new to the Star Wars universe, which also fits in perfectly with existing lore. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/586 "2021-07-16T18:45:25Z")
OK, last one before I get some sleep… > [@Miller](#): > > Sure, but Obi-Wan was a Light Side Force user. Both his motivations and his method of returning as a Force Ghost are going to be radically different from a Dark Side user. We can come up with an ad hoc explanation for anything. But my objection is that, narratively, obi wan living on is excusable because he doesn’t really live on, it’s just weak occasional messages that may not even be real. Bringing a dude back wholesale OTOH is very damaging in terms of the audience’s investment in the story and is an important element of why IX was so bad. > [@Miller](#): > > If nine movies with the same villain is too much, why isn’t six? Six \*is\* too many IMO. But it doesn’t grate too much because we don’t see the Emporer much in IV (IIRC) and of course it’s basically a different character in I, II and most of III. But once he’s dead, yeah, we’re flogging a dead ~~force~~ horse. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/587 "2021-07-16T18:52:15Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But my objection is that, narratively, obi wan living on is excusable because he doesn’t really live on, it’s just weak occasional messages that may not even be real. May not be real? He talks Yoda into accepting Luke as an apprentice. In Jedi, he straight up chills with Luke on a log in Dagobah. [![](https://i.redd.it/cpmyhx6l4nv51.jpg) ](https://i.redd.it/cpmyhx6l4nv51.jpg) If Obi wan can do that much, why isn’t Palpatine at least showing up to Dark Side loyalists to tell them, “Go kill this dude for me,” or “Hey, want to learn Force Lightning?” ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/588 "2021-07-16T20:23:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sure, it can get repetitive, but “Palpatine, Secret Traitor,” “Palpatine, Emperor of the Galaxy,” and “Palpatine, Terror from Beyond the Grave,” are very different threats, and lead to very different stories, even if they’re all basically the same guy. At first I thought the idea of bring back ol’ Sheev was kind of interesting. He was the kind of villain you love to hate. Even Palpatine, however, falls victim to the problem of bringing someone back when they’re almost certainly dead. If he’s brought back once, what’s to prevent them from bringing him back again? Opening up that can of worms was just one more problem with the sequel trilogy. ETA: Even if they don’t bring Palpatine, and I doubt they would, it establishes the precedent that the next major villain may very well have their own encore. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/589 "2021-07-16T20:27:45Z")
“the Ghost Who Walks…the man who never dies…” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/590 "2021-07-16T20:49:19Z")
If Palpatine is going to be perpetually dying and returning, then he needs to [grow a beard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Gordon_Conquers_the_Universe#/media/File:Flash_Gordon_Conquers_the_Universe_(1940)_1.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/591 "2021-07-16T21:04:00Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > ETA: Even if they don’t bring Palpatine, and I doubt they would, it establishes the precedent that the next major villain may very well have their own encore. Perhaps, but Palapine seemed to have the whole live forever thing (the Darth Pelagius story) and the clones. So it fits him a lot more than any other villian. Not to mention that they did indeed bring back another major villain (at the end of Solo) before they brought back Palpatine - so it isn’t like his return is precedential or anything 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/592 "2021-07-16T21:19:23Z")
That’s also a good point - Star Wars was supposed to be a matinee serial done up big - and matinee serials were full of villains who kept not-actually-dying. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/593 "2021-07-17T05:16:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > May not be real? He talks Yoda into accepting Luke as an apprentice. In Jedi, he straight up chills with Luke on a log in Dagobah. Ah, right. I did say upthread I am a casual star wars fan, seems I have indeed forgot some stuff. > [@Miller](#): > > If Obi wan can do that much, why isn’t Palpatine at least showing up to Dark Side loyalists to tell them, “Go kill this dude for me,” or “Hey, want to learn Force Lightning?” Sure, and like I said upthread, that’s something that could potentially work in a movie. What doesn’t work, IMO, is bringing a villain back wholesale from the dead because you’ve blatantly run out of ideas. > [@Miller](#): > > That’s also a good point - Star Wars was supposed to be a matinee serial done up big - and matinee serials were full of villains who kept not-actually-dying. Yeah but of course that wouldn’t be any kind of excuse. Just because you make a movie inspired by X doesn’t mean you’re obligated to include movie-destroying feature Y. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2021, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/594 "2021-07-18T04:01:39Z")
That may explain why Vader is explicitly shown as surviving the final battle in the original movie, but nothing from Empire on really had anything to do with “matinee serials.” ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/595 "2021-07-28T02:26:03Z")
I was thinking about the Double Twist regarding Rey being Palpatine’s descendant in **TRoS**. After considering it, I think that it was mis-aimed attempt to create some kind of personal connection between the hero and villain. Let me back up. In TFA, Rey’s parentage meant nothing. Their importance lay in the fact that they had vanished and Rey was left unsure of what to do or how to move forward. This wasn’t given the proper weight by the somewhat lazy-script, but it’s clearly a difficult thing for her to leave knowing that even her only family returned to Jakku, they might never be able to find her. The Twist, in TLJ, doesn’t really retcon her parents’ fate. But it retcons Rey’s _feelings_ about them. In the first movie, she wanted to see them again; in the second movie this was changed at the last second so that she had a complex about their abandonment, which was delivered in exposition by someone who couldn’t have any knowledge of the subject and had, at best, a loose relationship with honesty. Fast forward to the third film. Problematically, the second movie offed the main villain and the only Bad Guys left are too hot to be evil, or got too humiliated to work as the main antagonist anymore. You think I’m joking there, but I’m fairly sure that’s how Disney saw it. In my view, there weren’t many options short of bringing back an old villain, and Palpatine was pretty much it. And having decided on that, well, there’s no connection to the existing characters _at all_. So Rey was re-retconed into being Palpatine’s granddaughter or whatever, so there was at least something going on between them. And Palpatine had to be behind Snoke somehow just because there’s no other way to tie him to Kylo Ren. In my view, this was never a mutual hissy fit between Rian Johnson and Abrams. Rather, the two just had too-different sensibilities and the lack of planning created a very ugly situation. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/596 "2021-07-28T20:48:35Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > In my view, there weren’t many options short of bringing back an old villain, and Palpatine was pretty much it. Darth Plagueis was the correct answer 😄 ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/597 "2021-07-29T22:00:24Z")
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/598 "2021-07-29T23:16:50Z")
Only semi-joking. Plaguies has never really appeared, so it wouldn’t have exactly been bringing him back. IMHO Episode VII left things with a Snoke = Darth Plagueis twist being the most obvious solution. I’m still not sure why so many think that would have been a terrible way to go. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2021, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/599 "2021-07-31T04:02:11Z")
Well, I don’t know if it would be a good way to go or not. it would at least have a way to do something new and interesting. Heck, I could even imagine getting Ian McDiarmid to play a completely different character. It’s not like he doesn’t have a long history as a character actor. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/600 "2021-08-08T03:58:36Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > What we actually see on screen is that Han has to explain to him the basics of the gun turret. I do not recall that happening at all. He gives Luke no instructions as to how to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2021, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/601 "2021-08-08T04:25:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > He gives Luke no instructions as to how to use it. The full 100% instructions Han gave Luke consisted of two words: _Stay Sharp_. [![](https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-18-2016/7xWwoD.gif) ](https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-18-2016/7xWwoD.gif) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=31)