# Star Wars VII, VIII, IX possibly to be retconned away {Warning Spoilers for other Star Wars movies} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [June 30, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809 "2020-06-30T16:38:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/61 "2020-07-01T21:08:57Z")
I’ll admit that on viewing some of the critiques of the PT, the “Jedi were inept, out of touch, and incompetent” subplot makes a lot of sense and might actually have been itnended. Plus, it ties in really well with Episode VIII. I really wish both PT and NT had explored that idea further, that the Jedi Order was fundamentally flawed in its understanding of the force and their failure to embrace the full range of human (for lack of a better word) emotion (perhaps even certain aspects of the dark side) set them up for a fall, and contributed in no small part to the fall of the Republic. Palpatine achieved dictatorial powers with the aid of the Jedi Order, not against its opposition. He then had only to issue the coup de grace to them at the end, rather than go up against them and the whole Republic from the onset. Again, there was a great story to be told in the PT, and some of it even made it into the final draft of the screenplay, it was just put together so poorly, and with so many extraneous elements that the good stuff got washed out by the bad. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/62 "2020-07-01T21:24:15Z")
Yup, George really, really needed a script doctor and an editor to stand up to him. The way Palpatine manipulated the Senate into giving him unchecked power is actually pretty cool…but it’s largely buried in there. The way the Jedi basically became a fundamentalist organization and completely blinded themselves to human nature, politics and asymmetric warfare is a really interesting fatal flaw, but it too was muddled to the point of unrecognizability. Palpatine secretly building the clone army, a pretty fun idea that might have benefitted from more foreshadowing. I want the Prequels remade by someone who knows what they are doing. Someone with a deft hand at political intrigue and spy games. I want the Sequels purged entirely with extreme prejudice, they aren’t just a failed effort, they are outright destructive to the IP. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/63 "2020-07-01T22:55:37Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I do wonder, assuming this is false, when they are going to make another Rey/Poe/Finn movie. Probably never. I don’t think John Boyega or Oscar Isaac want to return to _Star Wars_ again, while Rey’s destiny doesn’t have anything all that interesting worth exploring. They may drop in to another character’s story, and likely will have further adventures in novels and comics, but another movie centred around them is unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/64 "2020-07-02T01:13:35Z")
Because sometimes, it’s not about the destination, but the scenery along the way. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/65 "2020-07-02T01:28:39Z")
Honestly, I could stand to see more series, like Clone Wars, Rebels, and The Madalorian. All three have better writing/plotting, and acting, than most of the movies. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/66 "2020-07-02T02:45:29Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Just because I feel a rant coming on… > > Lightspeed skipping? FUCK YOU. One of the most foundational pieces of the “sci-fi” tech was how hyperspace worked and what it took to use it. You needed the navigation computer to plot the course for a time before you engaged it or else you risked death. > > > Han Solo: Traveling through **hyperspace** ain’t like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a **star** or bounce too close to a supernova and that’d end your trip real quick, wouldn’t it? > > But then all of a sudden Poe can just drive the ship through a series of hyperspace jumps? Yeah, fuck that idiocy. > > Also, tracking a ship through lightspeed? FUCK THAT TOO. How many close escapes were made in the first 6 movies using a well timed jump to hyperspace (after the appropriate calculations were made)? This is one of the reasons why there’s a rebellion in spite of the dominance of the Empire, because they can effectively hide due to the physics of the world. And no, this isn’t just some new magic technology that Galen Erso invents on a weekend. With this tech any future movie will basically be over in the first 15 minutes because if you can’t run and hide, you can’t have a underground rebellion. > > And then they fucking run out of gas? That’s the big challenge that basically ends the rebellion? And to think people complained about the prequels’ focus on trade policy. > > Yeah, I really, really hate these movies. Yeah, it’s too much with the stupid MacGuffins and “ex machinas” (not the awesome kind Domhnall Gleeson and Oscar Isaac starred together in previously. Hyperspacing through deflectors, lightspeed skipping, Sith wayfinders, stupid knife maps to find them (you could TELL someone where that thing was and they would never find it in hundreds of square miles of Death Star wreckage), all the new stupid Force tricks Emo Ren and Just Ray came up with. What they should have done was put together a Lord of the Rings style complete three movie story arch instead of just jamming every “cool” think JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson could think of and then fight over it on screen. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/67 "2020-07-02T02:48:58Z")
Retcon Episodes 1-3? [Gee, I wonder where they got that idea?](https://tstoaddicts.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/cosmic-wars-episode-vii-a-new-take-simpsons.jpg?w=500&h=358) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/68 "2020-07-02T02:53:02Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’ll admit that on viewing some of the critiques of the PT, the “Jedi were inept, out of touch, and incompetent” subplot makes a lot of sense and might actually have been itnended. I’m pretty sure it was not intended. Lucas doesn’t have that level of nuance in him, but in any event he wrote in the dreadful plot point that the Jedi suddenly had their powers of perception reduced (in a way they were aware of) - a move he made, I think, largely to get out of the yawning plot hole that is the fact that they seem limitlessly capable most of the time to “sense” the Force in others, but didn’t notice Palpatine was a Sith lord. That odd loss of power is the standing explanation for why they get blindsided - not a fundamental problem withthe Jedi. Hell, Lucas is on record as saying that when he talks about Anakin “bringing balance to the Force,” he means destroying the Sith and making everything light side and Jedi-happy. He was scarcely aware of how what he was writing, the very words he was using, would be perceived by normal humans. I also agree that the idea of the Jedi being out of touch and fundamentally wrong is a great idea. It’s such a great idea that Star Wars fans want to read it in. **But it’s not there** , not in the prequels. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/69 "2020-07-02T05:26:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > **But it’s not there** , not in the prequels. At the risk of being pedantic (I certainly get what you’re saying), I would say it **is** there, even if it’s only in a “death of the author” sort of way. That is, whether the Jedi Order’s ineptitude was a great idea for a story that Lucas meant to tell but just didn’t do a good job of because the rest of the story was so ponderous and his directing was so bad, or it is merely a reflection of Lucas’ own inability to perceive how the Jedi would, as you say, “be perceived by normal people” is (almost) beside the point. There’s enough of a “there” there that, whether it was intended or not, it’s “there.” ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/70 "2020-07-02T06:27:33Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > To suggest that he was just winging it when he made the prequels basically assumes that Lucas was either an idiot or totally and completely disinterested in the Star Wars legend for 2 decades and consumed with what, Howard the Duck? Not Howard the Duck, Howard the Gungan. Otherwise that pretty much nails it.   It’s always been obvious what Lucas was thinking when he made the Phantom Menace: * * * Let’s see…I want to put in something to appeal to _all_ audiences. **Young girls** … Padme… weird makeup… lots and lots of fancy dresses…and next movie I’ll chuck in some soppy romance for them… check. ✓ **Young boys** … pod racing… simple and effective… check. ✓ **Little kids** … Jar Jar… so cute, funny, and adorable… everyone is just going to _love_ him… I’ll sell millions and millions of Jar Jar figurines, toys, etc. ✓ **Very Serious Fanboys** … I’ll put in some Very Serious Crap about trade, and taxes, and ambassadors, and power politics to keep them happy… doesn’t have to make any sense… the fanboys can contort themselves into knots figuring out how it all fits together… keep them busy and do them good. ✓ Then we need… **Lightsaber fights** … of course… bigger, better, longer, and fancier than ever… ✓ **R2D2 and C3PO** … naturally… everyone likes them… ✓ **X-Wings and TIE-fighters** … sure, why not… ✓ **Battle droids** … some new and fancier ones… ✓ **Bad-ass guy** … chief senator is really the ‘phantom menace’… put a hood on him, so the audience won’t guess… big reveal… ✓ Last and _definitely_ not least… _ **extra-fancy CGI** _… the biggest, bestest, CGI money can buy… this is what is going to blow them all away… this is what movie making is all about… amirite? ✓ Let’s see… have I forgotten anything? …I’ve got a niggling feeling I’ve forgotten something… Oh, yes… character… plot… Never mind, we can figure out the less important things like that as we go along. * * * ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/71 "2020-07-02T07:13:39Z")
I forgot something… * * * **The Force** … too mystical and religious and New Agey… need to chuck in some pseudo-scientific crap to explain it… I’ve got it! _Midi-chlorians_… what a great idea… give the Serious Fanboys something more to chew on… they’ll simply love it. ✓ * * * ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/72 "2020-07-02T07:35:33Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Midi-chlorians Midi-chlorians? More like midi-borians! ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/73 "2020-07-02T08:14:19Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > It’s always been obvious what Lucas was thinking when he made the Phantom Menace: Though I think you’re largely correct about this checklist, he did have this story in mind for a long time, the proof of which is [the prologue in the original novelization](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/79njaf/the_prologue_from_the_1977_novelization_of_star/) of the first movie. It’s almost exactly the same, aside from Palpatine now being the master manipulator and a Sith Lord. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/74 "2020-07-02T14:57:00Z")
On thinking about it, I think that the solution is not to retcon them, but to simply ignore them. Write stories that simply don’t intersect at all with the events of the sequel trilogy. There’s 30 years between the original and sequel trilogies: Plenty of stories to be told there. There’s the entire history of the galaxy before the prequels. There’s the time between the prequels and the original series, though a lot of that has now been filled in (and fairly well, by most accounts). The galaxy’s a big place: You can fit in stories that take place around the same time, but on other planets, completely oblivious to what’s going on in episodes VII-IX. Never confirm what happened in the Abrams/Johnson movies, but never deny it, either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/75 "2020-07-02T16:37:28Z")
There is absolutely zero chance that Disney are going to retcon Rey out of existence. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/76 "2020-07-02T16:51:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There is absolutely zero chance that Disney are going to retcon Rey out of existence.  Sure. The whole purpose of the retcon (if it ever happens) would be to tell a different story with the same characters. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/77 "2020-07-02T16:53:47Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Sure. The whole purpose of the retcon (if it ever happens) would be to tell a different story with the same characters. No, in a continuity with no Emperor, there is no Rey, given that she was the daughter of a Palpy clone. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/78 "2020-07-02T16:57:46Z")
Rey would still exist, just in Star Wars Universe Prime (or whatever). ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/79 "2020-07-02T16:58:06Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > No, in a continuity with no Emperor, there is no Rey, given that she was the daughter of a Palpy clone. So they think up a different origin for Rey. No problem. It’s a different universe. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809/80 "2020-07-02T17:16:55Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > No, in a continuity with no Emperor, there is no Rey, given that she was the daughter of a Palpy clone. If the story is that Palpatine died aboard the second Death Star, then there could still be a Rey. At least according to how alternate timelines are most commonly represented in fiction (ie: it’s the same people in a different timeline, even generations later, as if the same people would have gotten together and the same sperm would have fertilized the same egg, etc, etc, relying as much on fantasy as science fiction to lay the groundwork, even if the fantastical elements are transparent to most people). Rey’s parents were, presumably, born prior to the Emporer’s death, perhaps even prior to the events of ANH. I am sure someone has calculated an approximate time period, bounded within the OT/PT trilogy timeline and assuming that Rey’s age roughly matches Daisy Ridley’s age and that her parents were at least adults when she was born (I mean, since George isn’t at the helm, hopefully the Canon is at least written to not employ child sex slaves as a necessary plot device), but I just don’t care that much to check. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/star-wars-vii-viii-ix-possibly-to-be-retconned-away-warning-spoilers-for-other-star-wars-movies/913809.md?page=5)