# Starbucks et al.: Whence apostrophe-less possessives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888 "2005-03-16T23:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/1 "2005-03-16T23:21:38Z")
This has been itching my brain for several years now, and at last it has burst forth as a full-grown question: Starbucks Barneys These are just two prominent examples. They _seem_ to be possessive–it’s not more than one Starbuck or Barney–but the critical punctuation mark is missing. What about Harrods? Sounds like it could be a last name. At any rate, if you have a clue as to why some names are missing the ', please lemme know. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/2 "2005-03-16T23:38:12Z")
I’ve noticed that apostrophe-less possessives are far more common in the UK than in the US. My WAG - the lack of an apostrophe in some North American business names might have something do do with Quebec language laws. Consider that Tim Horton’s is an English langauge business name, while Tim Hortons is English and French. The language police would have a fit with “Starbuck’s”, so to maintain a consistent corporate iage everywhere the apostrophe is deleted. It’s certainly better than the US Great Lakes English trait of pronouncing non-possessive business names in the possessive case - Target’s, Kmart’s, Best Buy’s, Wal-Mart’s and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/3 "2005-03-16T23:49:25Z")
The lack of apostrophes is omnipresent in the U.S. as well, so I don’t think that Canadian bilingualism has much to do with it. Consider that even a writers organization like the Authors Guild drops the apostrophe. Why? It’s simpler, cleaner, and doesn’t give rise to error. BTW, what staff report is this a comment on? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/4 "2005-03-16T23:57:19Z")
Plus, you have to leave it off for most websites, databases and such. No room for much in the way of punctuation in the computer world. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/5 "2005-03-17T10:07:02Z")
Pure effing illiteracy! ---
**Author:** ![NillyWilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@NillyWilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NillyWilly)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/6 "2005-03-17T12:52:29Z")
You also see non-possessive apostrophication. Drives me bonkers. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/7 "2005-03-17T13:24:07Z")
As this doesn’t seem related to any Staff Report that I can think of, I’m moving it to GQ. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/8 "2005-03-17T13:34:35Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > Consider that even a writers organization like the Authors Guild drops the apostrophe. Why? Because it’s a guild that consists of authors, not a guild that consists of author’s. No need for an apostrophe. Analogy: it’s like the “dairy products aisle” in the grocery store. If it’s a guild that _belongs_ to authors, that’s another story. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/9 "2005-03-17T13:37:50Z")
As the web increases in importance for marketing, it’s more and more important to ensure your various trademarks can be easily searched for and found (i.e. Googled). Any name with embedded punctuation is an invitation to perpetual anonymity as not all search engines treat punctuation smartly. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/10 "2005-03-17T13:46:32Z")
Sorry, I meant to put this in GQ to begin with. I wonder: Was Starbucks “Starbuck’s” originally back in Seattle? I’m not sure if the advent of the web is really the reason. Starbucks was “Starbucks” before the Internet got popular; so was “Harrods.” I’ve also noticed this for local businesses that don’t (one would presume) have much of a web presence. ---
**Author:** ![inquiring\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@inquiring\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inquiring_mind)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/11 "2005-03-17T13:47:02Z")
I don’t know if the apostrophe was dropped or it never had one from day one, but as long as I’ve lived in Southern California (since 1965), it’s always been spelled **Childrens Hospital**. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/12 "2005-03-17T13:48:33Z")
At least Macy\*s hasn’t lost its sense of literacy. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/13 "2005-03-17T13:51:42Z")
Also, [The Hecht Comapny](http://www.hechts.com/) - commonly referred to as “Hecht’s” (lazily pronounced “hex”). ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/14 "2005-03-17T13:53:08Z")
FWIW, “Sears” is a surname. I always wonder about “J.C. Penny”; People just call it “Penny’s.” Or is it ?Pennies"? Or “Pennys”? Or “Pennys’”? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/15 "2005-03-17T13:55:24Z")
> [@NillyWilly](#): > > You also see non-possessive apostrophication. Drives me bonkers. Or you could say it drives you bonker’s. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/16 "2005-03-17T14:05:46Z")
Omitting the apostrophe in what should be a possessive, IMO, gives the sign a more international and cosmopolitan feel. In addition, a name may be inspired by an actual person or fictional character, but the implication of possession may be inappropriate in terms of the feel that the business wants to generate. Yes, Starbucks was named after a character in Moby Dick, but they’re not Starbuck’s coffee shops. They don’t belong to a man named Starbuck. And maybe the founder of Barneys was indeed named Barney, but somehow “Barney’s” for a band name looks like the name of a pub, not that of an upscale clothing store. Even worse than the possessive-less apostrophe is the apostrophe abused. In my neck of the woods there are a couple of hamburger stands called “Thoma’s”. I’m not sure if the man’s name is Thomas and the apostrophe is being abused, or if the name is actually “Thoma” and it’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/17 "2005-03-17T14:10:35Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > but somehow “Barney’s” for a band name looks like the name of a pub, not that of an upscale clothing store. > > . **brand** name, not “band name”. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/18 "2005-03-17T14:20:11Z")
I’m from West Virginia, where there used to be a department store chain called _Heck’s_. It was always a hoot to hear people add a possessive, making it _Hecks’s_. > [@Patty O'Furniture](#): > > Also, [The Hecht Comapny](http://www.hechts.com/) - commonly referred to as “Hecht’s” (lazily pronounced “hex”). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/19 "2005-03-17T14:24:01Z")
Why not “Author Guild” or “Starbuck Coffee”? That makes far more sense to me than “Authors Guild.” ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/20 "2005-03-17T15:00:59Z")
I always assumed it was a plural, not a possessive - lots and lots of bucks. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888.md?page=2)