# Starbucks et al.: Whence apostrophe-less possessives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888 "2005-03-16T23:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/41 "2005-03-18T12:22:52Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > Barclays Bank was started by the Barclay family, who were quakers, in Norwich. It is after one of this family - or maybe all of them - that Carrow Road’s Barclay Stand was named. > Barclays’ first bank building is still in operation in Norwich. No, no, I could Google _that_ easily 😉 - I was wondering when they dropped the apostrophe (or whether they ever had one) ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/42 "2005-03-18T12:23:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > No, no, I could Google _that_ easily 😉 - I was wondering when they dropped the apostrophe (or whether they ever had one) Ah - apologies ---
**Author:** ![aegypt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@aegypt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aegypt)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/43 "2005-03-18T12:40:53Z")
Well, if you leave the apostrophe in (“Starbuck’s”), how do you refer to their coffee? “Starbuck’s’s coffee is great”? Or would you have to rewrite it as “the coffee we serve at Starbuck’s is great”? Just “Starbuck’s coffee is great” wouldn’t cut the mustard since there’s no Starbuck, just Starbuck’s. My theory is that the apostrophe might often be dropped so that the possesive form can be formed more elegantly. In another language (Spanish, for instance) this problem would never arise. ---
**Author:** ![Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fromage\_A\_Trois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fromage_A_Trois)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/44 "2005-03-18T14:33:27Z")
> [@aegypt](#): > > Well, if you leave the apostrophe in (“Starbuck’s”), how do you refer to their coffee? I think that “Starbuck’s coffee” does the trick - I’m referring to the coffee _from_ Starbuck’s, not _belonging to_ Starbuck’s. It belongs to me coz I’ve just bought it. In the same way I say “Dell PCs are cheap” or “Microsoft software is everywhere” I’d say “Starbuck’s coffee is expensive. Err… great.”. But you might be right - the apostrophe may be dropped to avoid this confusion. With the existing name, would you refer to it as “Starbucks’ coffee”, or “Starbucks coffee”? As above, I wouldn’t bother with the possessive. British dopers may be aware of the add campaign for Terry’s Chocolate Orange - “It’s not Terry’s, it’s mine.” ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/45 "2005-03-19T02:14:58Z")
> [@galt](#): > > Why? Because using an apostrophe in a sign in Quebec became illegal in 1977, according to [Bill 101](http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-73-1297/politics_economy/bill101/). ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/46 "2005-03-19T02:20:10Z")
Whoops! Didn’t finish it. The law isn’t valid now, but Francophones in Quebec supposedly hate apostrophes in signs. Use an apostrophe, and you’ll lose the business of Canadian Francophones. Drop it, and English speakers really won’t miss it. It’s just good business sense; drop a little apostrophe, and gain a few million prospective new customers. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/47 "2005-03-19T09:48:22Z")
McDonald’s and Wendy’s haven’t dropped their apostrophes. From what I’ve heard, McDonald’s even uses it in Quebec. I understand that Pikes Peak officially lost its apostrophe via a law passed by the Colorado legislature. In addition to Martha’s Vineyard, Coeur d’Alene ID also kept its apostrophe despite the USBGN rule against them. It was about the only town name to do so. Several places have since reacquired them such as D’Lo MS, which for a number of years was named Dlo. I’m not sure about Lee’s Summit MO. You can google and find lots of hits both with and without. I’m not sure which is official. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/48 "2005-03-19T10:09:08Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > In addition to Martha’s Vineyard, Coeur d’Alene ID also kept its apostrophe despite the USBGN rule against them. Perhaps the rule specifically ruled against possesive apostrophes only? ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/49 "2005-03-19T12:38:32Z")
Sometimes, even the people using the apostrophes cannot get it consistently right (or wrong). At the London Underground station which, according to Transport for London (the governing body) is called **St James’s Park** , there are some signs which say **St James’ Park**. Either form is acceptable (I prefer the first myself, but that reflects how I was taught back in the 1960s). Other Underground stations with or without apostrophes include: **EARL’S COURT** and **BARONS COURT** - which are adjacent to each other on the Piccadilly Line - **SHEPHERD’S BUSH** , **PARSONS GREEN** , **QUEEN’S PARK** , **KING’S CROSS** and, possibly not a possessive, **BOUNDS GREEN**. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/50 "2005-03-19T14:14:52Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Whoops! Didn’t finish it. The law isn’t valid now, but Francophones in Quebec supposedly hate apostrophes in signs. > > Use an apostrophe, and you’ll lose the business of Canadian Francophones. Drop it, and English speakers really won’t miss it. It’s just good business sense; drop a little apostrophe, and gain a few million prospective new customers. Does this apply to Frech apostrophes, too? French uses a lot of contractions with apostrophes, no? S’il vouz plait, contester me? Je t’aimerez siempre. \<— hacked, badly hacked, but you see my point? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/51 "2005-03-19T14:24:51Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Does this apply to Frech apostrophes, too? French uses a lot of contractions with apostrophes, no? S’il vouz plait, contester me? Je t’aimerez siempre. \<— hacked, badly hacked, but you see my point? I believe it only applied the the 's which are an English construction and thus couldn’t be placed on public signs. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/52 "2005-03-20T02:26:16Z")
Re: Coeur d’Alene > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Perhaps the rule specifically ruled against possesive apostrophes only? No, otherwise D’Lo wouldn’t have lost its apostrophe for a few years (not sure when it regained it, but I think in the 1920s). I think the reason is that larger towns with well established names were generally exempt from the new rules they tried to apply. For instance, one of the rules was to eliminate spaces in names. Obviously this was not applied to New York or even Terre Haute (in fact, it was hardly applied at all). Coeur d’Alene was large enough to keep its apostrophe, although it did lose a circumflex on the second E (another of the rules was to get rid of all diacritics). ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888/53 "2005-03-20T17:41:26Z")
There’s a grocery chain here in California called [Ralphs](http://www.ralphs.com), which used to bug me until I discovered it was founded by a guy named Ralphs (not Ralph). I’ve noticed that people from certain parts of the Midwest will add “s” in speech to the name of any store, whether it is named after a person or not. Hence, “IGA’s” and “Sav-on’s”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-et-al-whence-apostrophe-less-possessives/294888.md?page=2)