# Starbucks isn't worth it any more (and the company is getting \[already?\] evil) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** coffee\ **Created:** [June 3, 2022, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645 "2022-06-03T20:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/41 "2022-06-04T12:55:12Z")
I’m starting to get a Yogi Berra-ish nobody-goes-to-Starbucks-anymore vibe from some posts in this thread, though Starbucks’ bottom line [seems to be in reasonably good shape](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SBUX/starbucks/revenue). > [@Magiver](#): > > I loved Dunkin Donuts coffee until I watched them make it. The secret ingredient was a pound of sugar. If they had to list ingredients on the container coffee would not be the first thing listed. I’d be surprised at this unless there’s a secret trial of “sweet coffee” going on in the South to complement the plague of “sweet tea”. All the Dunkin Donuts coffee I’ve had (including lately) has been unsweetened like everyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/42 "2022-06-04T13:01:09Z")
I’m not sure where @Magiver is from, but in Beantown (and environs), “Coffee, regular” (at DD) _tends_ to have a fair amount of both cream _and_ sugar: > **[At Dunkin’ Donuts, ‘Coffee Regular’ Has a Limit. And that Limit is New York...](https://www.boston.com/news/business/2014/06/17/at-dunkin-donuts-coffee-regular-has-a-limit-and-that-limit-is-new-york-state/)** > > Boston.com’s totally unnecessary investigation reveals where you can go and get a “coffee regular’’ when you order “coffee regular.’’ I think it’s a New England caffeine shibboleth. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/43 "2022-06-04T13:13:39Z")
That was Cafe Express South. It was on a corner of a largish apartment building. (Main runs East-west on a very slight slant.) I worked at the bigger one on Dempster. (Even had a smoking section back then, which is odd to think about now.) Unicorn was in downtown Evanston. I remember when Starbucks opened up a block away from us c.1995 on Dempster and some of the discussion about it. It definitely did eat into some of our business with the casual coffee goers. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/44 "2022-06-04T13:27:53Z")
I did live downtown. “Cafe Express South” doesn’t ring a bell, but I could be wrong! ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/45 "2022-06-04T13:31:19Z")
Starbucks is the #2 fast food chain in the country, after McDonald’s: > **[Top 500 Chains](https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/top-500-chains)** > > RB ranks concepts by U.S. systemwide sales and dive into Technomic's Top 500 Chain Restaurant Report with insights from the wins and losses It’s crazy how many units they have. Edit: This has them at #3 in 2020. I believe they are 2 or 3 right now: > **[50 Biggest Fast Food Chains in America | Eat This, Not That!](https://www.eatthis.com/biggest-fast-food-chains-america/)** > > While it may appear like Starbucks stalking you, your favorite fast food chains may not actually be the most prolific across all 50 states. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/46 "2022-06-04T13:44:31Z")
I meant like towards the main business strip near campus, like near Davis/Church & Sherman. Express South did become Brothers K Coffeehouse, but that was a little later, I want to say early 2000s. 500 Hinman, same block as the popular diner Lucky Platter. It was still Express when I left Evanston in 1998. I think it had been there since around like 1991. (ETA: October 1989, according to the Trib. The Dempster location, Evanston’s first coffeehouse, opened around 1982 according to the same article I found.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/47 "2022-06-04T13:46:37Z")
Weird. I’ve never heard the expression “coffee regular” at DD or anywhere else. When ordering coffee I’ve been asked if I want sugar and typically say, yes, a packet on the side. But to someone accustomed to getting presweetened coffee it shouldn’t be surprising that yes, there’s sugar already in it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/48 "2022-06-04T13:46:43Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Starbucks is the #2 fast food chain in the country, after McDonald’s: I was about to say, it’s not Subway? It’s #8 on that list. But Subway is number one on the next list. Probably ranked by slightly different criteria. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/49 "2022-06-04T13:48:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Weird. I’ve never heard the expression “coffee regular” at DD or anywhere else. When ordering coffee I’ve been asked if I want sugar and typically say, yes, a packet on the side. But to someone accustomed to getting presweetened coffee it shouldn’t be surprising that yes, there’s sugar already in it. I’ve always associated that order with New York (over here in Chicago, “regular” would most likely be interpreted as “black,” or at least that’s how I would have interpreted it before learning of the term from a New Yorker friend, and seeing it here on the Dope), but it looks like it covers a little more geographical ground. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/50 "2022-06-04T14:18:53Z")
For me, an expensive cup of coffee is the rent I pay for an hour in a relatively clean relaxation/work space with essential facilities (restroom and Wi-Fi). A Starbucks drive-thru or take-out makes no sense to me; the coffee from a gas station serves the same purpose for a quarter the price. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/51 "2022-06-04T14:39:01Z")
Apparently a regular coffee has cream and sugar up and down the east coast. I can only go from what people tell me, you couldn’t pay me to touch that stuff. It is different here in RI than in the normal world. We have more Dunkin Donuts per capita than any other state. We’ve changed the name of the state recently and it’s been proposed that we just change it to the State of Dunkin and try to get some more money out of them. So coffee from an unspecified source means Dunkin around here. > [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, the business model is “sell an addictive product and market it to teenagers”. It never fails, and you can start before they become teenagers. It’s tradition to serve [CoffeeMilk](https://www.amazon.com/Eclipse-Coffee-Syrup-1-Pint/dp/B003M771CI/ref=asc_df_B003M771CI/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312134195473&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15000980193546631226&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002215&hvtargid=pla-568816902442&psc=1) at the schools in Rhode Island. Notice the product proclaims it is _The Official State Drink of Rhode Island_. Nobody freak out though, it doesn’t have as much caffeine as coffee does. Of course kids are smaller than adults, does that matter? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/52 "2022-06-04T14:42:04Z")
Right, I used to eat at Lucky Platter at least once a week! I went back a couple years ago and… the polenta was NOT as good! Bummer. Wait, so I could have met you in real life at Express, 1994-1995?! ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/53 "2022-06-04T14:46:17Z")
I actually subscribe to the Restaurant Business email, and their Top 500 for 2022 just came in! 1. McDonald’s 2. Starbucks 3. Chick-fil-A > **[Top 500 2022](https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/top-500-2022?utm_source=Marketo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NL_RB_Weekend_Edition_06-04-22&LID=12799605&mkt_tok=NTYxLVpOUC04OTcAAAGEzgmJCpookj3XHLdcoiAUtQ2x1cfDRNV0GrRdkDuTOraRzgHKl9lw8-gN1Ib8HMwQ9VXCz69GZXmHFXX2rc6HL4AGSqylea2tvSOXdZnE4iTrYH8)** > > The 500 largest chains collectively have recovered from the pandemic and then some, with sales up 8.4% since 2019. But success was not ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/54 "2022-06-04T14:47:13Z")
Subway is #8 now. Apparently this is by sales, but Subway still has the highest unit count. But that unit count still fell by 5% in the period they’re looking at. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/55 "2022-06-04T14:53:37Z")
Reading this thread makes me very happy that Tim Horton’s opened franchises on this side of the border. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/56 "2022-06-04T14:54:26Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > My need for caffeine and my capacity for tolerating … well … this … are inversely proportional: There’s always this: [![](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2020/09/640/320/Burger-King-mascot-getty.jpg?ve=1&tl=1) ](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2020/09/640/320/Burger-King-mascot-getty.jpg?ve=1&tl=1) ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/57 "2022-06-04T14:57:23Z")
You couldn’t be more wrong. Haven’t set foot in a McShitalds in years. I visit Starbucks only when it’s the only option. My preference are the small independent coffee stands. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/58 "2022-06-04T14:59:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Their treatment of “partners” was always manipulative and full of pandering language, and as a franchiser they followed the path of enlisting franchise owners in onerous contracts that penalized them for any deviation from the norm or downturn in business while opening up competing outlets in close proximity to one another in a pitted battle that ensured that both lost but the corporation gets its vig regardless. I don’t dispute your premise, but I’ll nitpick that I don’t think Starbucks does franchises. Googling confirms this, sort of. You can apparently franchise a Starbucks outside of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/59 "2022-06-04T15:00:02Z")
I find myself puzzled by the lack of a standard menu at Starbucks. Some places can make a grilled cheese, some locations cannot. But all in all, the coffeehouse concept has been abandoned in favor of just an expensive fast-food place. The seating is nothing special. The noise is too high. It seems most people come in, grab something and go. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645/60 "2022-06-04T15:27:23Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t dispute your premise, but I’ll nitpick that I don’t think Starbucks does franchises. Googling confirms this, sort of. You can apparently franchise a Starbucks outside of the U.S. Technically store owners are [“licensees”](https://starbucksfranchise.com/) in the United States and Canada. However, unlike many license agreements that are just branding and sales agreements, Starbucks license agreements give the corporation extensive control over how the licensee can operate without any obligation to the licensees, including arbitrarily yanking licenses over minor or manufactured issues. Since Starbucks isn’t really in the real estate business so they don’t have an interest in actually owning physical stores; the corporation does own a handful of ‘flagship’ storefronts outright for promotional reasons but doesn’t act as a financier and lease-owner the way McDonalds frequently does with its franchises. However, “partner” in the context of the post you reference is actually how they refer to service employees, who they shine in with a bunch of bullshit about how much they care, provide some minimum of benefits, et cetera. The corporation, of course, doesn’t give a flying fuck about store workers who are employed by licensees save for the public perception that it is a more generous work opportunity than other fast food places, which again is all about maintaining an upscale image. The recent ‘brouhaha’ over unionization by service employees of individual stores has brought this into the public sphere, no doubt much to the distaste of Starbucks corporate executives and board members because while they don’t want to be seen as union-busters they want to be able to promote the financial advantages of selling more licenses to open more stores so they can meet their aggressive growth targets, and higher wages make that seem less appealing to potential licensees. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starbucks-isnt-worth-it-any-more-and-the-company-is-getting-already-evil/965645.md?page=4)