# Starfleet's Prime Directive: Keep or trash? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637 "2013-08-07T21:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/41 "2013-08-08T15:25:59Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > I’m all for the Prime Directive, I think you should leave cultures that are at certain development alone. You don’t want to give a caveman a phaser, ferinstance. He probably couldn’t make the payments anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/42 "2013-08-08T15:26:14Z")
Why not save them? ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/43 "2013-08-08T15:26:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > 1a. Because you have nothing to offer in exchange that they do not already have in abundance, so haggling over the price would be a waste of their time. Oh, I think Mudd would certainly find something worth trading for in a primitive-to-him civilization. Those miners he had contact with are probably still lonely for female companionship, and really, isn’t handing over a few hundred women to a spaceman worth it if you can get yourself a batch of phasers to, ahem, “defend” yourself against a neighboring tribe or country? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/44 "2013-08-08T15:30:32Z")
The Prime Directive exists for dramatic tension. Given that, and assuming an actual real United Federation of Planets, I would discard it. There should be a well-established method of scouting pre-Warp cultures and slowly incorporating them into the Federation even if only as ‘associate’ members. That would decrease the social shock of encountering an alien species and technology that approaches magic in its abilities. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/45 "2013-08-08T15:31:47Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Screw the Prime Directive. It is patronizing, condescending, and racist. I agree. It always seemed much more like “Let’s see if they’ll give themselves enough rope to hang themselves.” directive to me. I particularly never liked the non-interventionist ideal in situations where intervention was patently in the interest of saving hundreds(thousands, millions, etc…) of sentient beings from natural disasters, avoidable wars, etc… but Starfleet wouldn’t intervene because it was against the Prime Directive. Think about it this way- if there was some sort of Starfleet out there now, and there was a planet-killer asteroid headed for Earth, would you want them to not intervene because it might interfere with our development? Or for that matter, let’s say a technical glitch in 1985 actually started WWIII, and these Starfleet jerks could have stopped it but didn’t? Seems kind of morally bankrupt to me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/46 "2013-08-08T16:31:45Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > 1. I would not expect them to give anything. If it’s worth the effort to cross light-years to reach us, it’s reasonable to assume we have something they want. Since they didn’t just exterminate us and take it, trade seems to me a reasonable expectation. > > 2. We learn new trades, and make ourselves useful in the new economy. We adapt, or we die. Same as the dinosaurs and the sabertooths. > > 3. Who cares? Culture is a luxury for people with full bellies. Most of what they could give us is information, which is free. But it would be a disaster for us. AIDS is terrible, but we are making good progress and studying it advances our knowledge of our bodies. If aliens dropped in, all scientific research would immediately become Googling the galactic web to find articles giving the answers to any questions we have. I’m sure we could make money selling knockoffs of the Mona Lisa and the Pieta to alien tourists. Is that a good future? Trade is good, but is best between more or less equals. If contact is delayed until we achieve warp or other ftl technology, we can get inducted into the galactic culture due to our own achievements, which is going to be a lot better for our egos than someone dripping in for a potty break. Also, consider what would happen if they dropped in around 1962. Should the aliens watch us almost kill ourselves, or should they interfere to stop it? If we really did kill ourselves, would we be suitable for polite company? ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/47 "2013-08-08T16:54:01Z")
Keep the Prime Directive, but tighten the language and _change the stated rationale_. The reason they always give in the series is that interference would alter a culture’s “natural course of evolution,” which indicates a horrendous misunderstanding of the undirected way evolution actually works. However, I can easily imagine why a spacefaring civilization might not want to announce itself to a pre-warp (or worse, pre-industrial) civilization. Such a culture may not even have the basic knowledge of astronomy to even comprehend what is happening, much less be able to deal with the Federation as anything remotely resembling equals. And even if they do, there are likely cultural issues that would require, at the minimum, extremely careful diplomacy to avoid incident. The TNG episode “First Contact” did an excellent job illustrating how this sort of thing could dissolve into chaos even if the civilization in question is relatively advanced. IOW, reframe the Prime Directive as a means to avoid cultural imperialism on an interstellar scale, rather than some sort of wishy-washy notion of natural evolution as applied to civilizations. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/48 "2013-08-08T17:25:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If aliens dropped in, all scientific research would immediately become Googling the galactic web to find articles giving the answers to any questions we have. > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m sure we could make money selling knockoffs of the Mona Lisa and the Pieta to alien tourists. Is that a good future? In 1800, Asia was far behind Europe, technologically and economically. Today, Indians and Japanese win Nobel Prizes, and Chinese millionaires buy mansions from Americans with underwater mortgages. > [@Voyager](#): > > Also, consider what would happen if they dropped in around 1962. Should the aliens watch us almost kill ourselves, or should they interfere to stop it? If we really did kill ourselves, would we be suitable for polite company? If they value peace, they should interfere to stop it. Most likely, they would pick one side, and squash the other. The survivors would eventually become civilized. And their grandchildren would whine about how imperialistic the aliens were. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/49 "2013-08-08T17:53:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Think about it this way- if there was some sort of Starfleet out there now, and there was a planet-killer asteroid headed for Earth, would you want them to not intervene because it might interfere with our development? Perhaps they do, and don’t tell us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/50 "2013-08-08T18:38:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps they do, and don’t tell us. 🙂 Exactly. Like [Apophis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis) just missing us was pure chance. Pffttt! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/51 "2013-08-08T18:44:11Z")
I rather like [The Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture)’s approach to dealing with less advanced civilizations: “Yes, it’s a very complicated process, and unintended consequences are possible. However, we’ve been doing this sort of thing for thousands of years, and we’ve gotten very, very good at it.” They don’t always make contact, and they sometimes limit themselves to clandestine interference (at least for a while), but they generally go for full-blown uplifting. > [@Chimera](#): > > 1\> Why would they GIVE us any of this? > 2\> What happens to our economy when 80% of our technology is obsolete overnight? > 3\> What happens to our cultures when faced with this stuff all at once? In the case of The Culture: 1. Because they can. And they don’t like it when people suffer. 2. Insofar as an economy is a system for the allocation of limited resources, the word will no longer apply. There is no “economy” because providing all humans with effectively unlimited free goods and services consumes only a fraction of their “GDP”. 3. Perhaps the biggest complaint that Culture citizens have is that, with no sources of suffering in their long, luxury-filled lives, they can’t produce “real” art. It kinda puts “First World problems” to shame. So I guess there’s that drawback. As far as I can tell, this would apply more or less equally to uplifting by the Federation. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/52 "2013-08-08T18:48:01Z")
Trash it. It was mistakes that led to the disastrous first contact between humans and Klingons, but mistakes are fixable. Nobody would think that if you screw up once, you can never try to fix the problem again. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/53 "2013-08-08T18:55:44Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > 1. We learn new trades, and make ourselves useful in the new economy. We adapt, or we die. Same as the dinosaurs and the sabertooths. > > 2. Who cares? Culture is a luxury for people with full bellies. I would hope you would enjoy the buckets of blood that would be on your hands, because that is a cold and heartless way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/54 "2013-08-08T18:57:21Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I rather like [The Culture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture)’s approach … They don’t always make contact, and they sometimes limit themselves to clandestine interference (at least for a while), but they generally go for full-blown uplifting. > > As far as I can tell, this would apply more or less equally to uplifting by the Federation. What if people don’t want to be uplifted? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/55 "2013-08-08T19:32:56Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Exactly. Like [Apophis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis) just missing us was pure chance. Pffttt! :rolleyes: Hell, we say [that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradise_Syndrome) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/56 "2013-08-08T19:47:28Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > In 1800, Asia was far behind Europe, technologically and economically. Today, Indians and Japanese win Nobel Prizes, and Chinese millionaires buy mansions from Americans with underwater mortgages. Remember the Opium Wars? Colonization? There was an article in the Times last week about how Chinese policy is still strongly affected by the impact of Europe during the last two centuries. Eventually, if the aliens let us attend their universities, we might be able to contribute. But the technological gap is likely to be much greater than it was between Europe and Asia. > [@](#): > > If they value peace, they should interfere to stop it. Most likely, they would pick one side, and squash the other. The survivors would eventually become civilized. And their grandchildren would whine about how imperialistic the aliens were. 🙂 Or maybe the aliens wouldn’t be able to tell the difference and squash both. We learned something from that experience - it would be shame to have lost it due to intervention - especially because we managed not to kill ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/57 "2013-08-09T01:58:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Most of what they could give us is information, which is free. But it would be a disaster for us. Luddite. > [@](#): > > Trade is good, but is best between more or less equals. If contact is delayed until we achieve warp or other ftl technology, we can get inducted into the galactic culture due to our own achievements, which is going to be a lot better for our egos than someone dripping in for a potty break. How many people are you willing to see die for the sake of this misguided nationalism? And why is the technological development of FTL (the point at which they are physically incapable of continuing the deception) a relevant threshold? Civil rights would be a better standard, on the basis that anyone in favour of lynching blacks isn’t going to play nice with the twelve-armed cephalapods who want to say hello. > [@](#): > > Also, consider what would happen if they dropped in around 1962. Should the aliens watch us almost kill ourselves, or should they interfere to stop it? If we really did kill ourselves, would we be suitable for polite company? Like I said, you can make an argument for non-interference in war, because you don’t necessarily know who if anyone is in the right, and because there is more likely to be substantial opposition to your involvement. But that does not excuse the scope of the Prime Directive as written. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/58 "2013-08-09T02:06:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Luddite. > How many people are you willing to see die for the sake of this misguided nationalism? And why is the technological development of FTL (the point at which they are physically incapable of continuing the deception) a relevant threshold? Civil rights would be a better standard, on the basis that anyone in favour of lynching blacks isn’t going to play nice with the twelve-armed cephalapods who want to say hello. > Like I said, you can make an argument for non-interference in war, because you don’t necessarily know who if anyone is in the right, and because there is more likely to be substantial opposition to your involvement. But that does not excuse the scope of the Prime Directive as written. Profit. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/59 "2013-08-09T09:19:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I would hope you would enjoy the buckets of blood that would be on your hands, because that is a cold and heartless way of thinking. I believe that my way would be bloodier in the short run, but less bloody in the long run. I believe that your way would give the illusion of less blood in the short run, but would be bloodier in the long run. > [@Voyager](#): > > Remember the Opium Wars? Colonization? There was an article in the Times last week about how Chinese policy is still strongly affected by the impact of Europe during the last two centuries. If an E.T. civilization is even contemplating the Prime Directive, then our odds of avoiding colonization are pretty good. If they are aggressive, then we get colonized, regardless of what directives they may or may not have on the books. > [@](#): > > Eventually, if the aliens let us attend their universities, we might be able to contribute. But the technological gap is likely to be much greater than it was between Europe and Asia. Short-term, we won’t contribute. Long-term, why wouldn’t we be able to contribute? > [@](#): > > Or maybe the aliens wouldn’t be able to tell the difference and squash both. We learned something from that experience - it would be shame to have lost it due to intervention - especially because we managed not to kill ourselves. It’s good to learn from one’s own mistakes. It’s better to learn from other peoples’ mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/60 "2013-08-09T10:13:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 1\> Why would they GIVE us any of this? Why not? We wouldn’t have anything worthwhile to give them in trade, even assuming they still think in terms of trade. If they aren’t interested in _giving_ stuff to us then they probably wouldn’t bother to contact us at all. > [@Chimera](#): > > 2\> What happens to our economy when 80% of our technology is obsolete overnight? It gets replaced by better technology & a better economy. With Trek or the Culture we’re talking more-or-less post scarcity. > [@Chimera](#): > > 3\> What happens to our cultures when faced with this stuff all at once? It adapts. The idea that relatively primitive cultures are overwhelmed and destroyed by contact with more advanced cultures is largely a myth, a matter of blaming the victim. In reality they are perfectly capable of adapting - for which crime historically the more advanced culture has _attacked_ them. Then claimed that the results of them smashing any part of the primitive culture that adapted was an example of how more primitive cultures can’t handle contact, rather than the result of violence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637.md?page=4)