# Starfleet's Prime Directive: Keep or trash? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637 "2013-08-07T21:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/81 "2013-08-09T19:53:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m sure they would screw things up in a different way. For instance, imagine the aliens saying > > “You still believe in tribal deities? No offense, but really? I need to get the anthropologists here right away!” > Personally I’d be fine with this, but I think it would cause a lot of people problems. It’d be interesting to a) see how the religious of our world deals with the fact that we’re not alone. and b) see how religious E.T.'s cope. I’m sure our anthropologists would have plenty of work to do too. > [@](#): > > And when the best and the brightest humans go off to the alien worlds and never come back - which is exactly what most of the people sitting around me at work did do? ? > [@](#): > > There are tons of unintended consequences, which even we can’t predict and which aliens certainly wouldn’t be able to predict. It is just safer to avoid the problem until it becomes inevitable through star travel. Oh well then what’s the point? Would you send Columbus on a voyage to the orient only to observe and report? If we met a culture, even in prewarp, I’m sure there are ideas that they could present us that would be fascinating and vice versa. Even if the ideas they present are IDENTICAL to our own, there will be something to be gained from knowing that fact alone. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/82 "2013-08-09T20:10:24Z")
The PD is a good idea but was too often honored only in the breach - referred to and then pretty much ignored. Not good, either as policy or as drama. Human history is littered with examples of societies of vastly different technological and social development coming together; the outcome for the less-developed society was almost always bad in the short term, sometimes genocidally so. As Picard said, the PD is intended under normal circumstances to protect the Federation as much as it is the non-starfaring society. Even our best intentions can have enormously bad consequences, and then we’d have to live with that. Better to keep hands off until a society shows itself at least capable of starflight. That’s a workable and bright line for determining when a culture is ready to undergo first contact. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > It’s generally a good policy. I don’t see a problem with suspending it to save a species from extinction if you can do it secretly, or if another warp capable race is interfering already. That’s pretty much how I’d play it. > [@Voyager](#): > > …Also, consider what would happen if they dropped in around 1962. Should the aliens watch us almost kill ourselves, or should they interfere to stop it? If we really did kill ourselves, would we be suitable for polite company? “Zoltar Frtyzl to President Kennedy. If you and your buddy Nikita lay waste to your planet and end your race’s existence, I _swear_ I will never talk to you again.” > [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Keep the Prime Directive, but tighten the language and _change the stated rationale_. The reason they always give in the series is that interference would alter a culture’s “natural course of evolution,” which indicates a horrendous misunderstanding of the undirected way evolution actually works. > > However, I can easily imagine why a spacefaring civilization might not want to announce itself to a pre-warp (or worse, pre-industrial) civilization. Such a culture may not even have the basic knowledge of astronomy to even comprehend what is happening, much less be able to deal with the Federation as anything remotely resembling equals. And even if they do, there are likely cultural issues that would require, at the minimum, extremely careful diplomacy to avoid incident. The TNG episode “First Contact” did an excellent job illustrating how this sort of thing could dissolve into chaos even if the civilization in question is relatively advanced. > > IOW, reframe the Prime Directive as a means to avoid cultural imperialism on an interstellar scale, rather than some sort of wishy-washy notion of natural evolution as applied to civilizations. Makes sense to me. And “First Contact” is indeed a great episode: [First Contact (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/First_Contact_(episode)) > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > [Tommy Lee] Jones would be the better captain, but [Will] Smith the more entertaining character. > Like Picard and Kirk in different seasons of the same show. Could be a good series. Yes! Jones and Smith could alternate, with one commanding the ship while the other goes to Starfleet seminars for retraining and career counseling. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/83 "2013-08-09T20:11:31Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Why not? > Self-protection, for one thing. Species ripe for uplift are top predators in their food chain. > Giving them technology means we need to control them to keep ourselves safe. > > Plus, why not let species develop on their own? Why interfere? Instead of thinking about them as competitors, think about them as allies. In Star Trek, the humans and Vulcans were two of the closest races because of how their first contact was made. Any species we save from destruction or disease is going to be eternally grateful. In fact, if I found out after my race joined the Federation that hundreds of years ago, they could have helped us with a worldwide pandemic but didn’t, I’d be pretty pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/84 "2013-08-09T20:58:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m of course picturing this with Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones. > > Coming back around: would the folks in this thread who are in favor of the Prime Directive in general be okay with an End-Of-The-World exception? Technically,[there _is_ one.](http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Omega_Directive) ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/85 "2013-08-09T21:00:54Z")
Maybe they’ll turn out to be Vulcans. Maybe they’ll be Klingons. Saving a species from utter destruction, maybe. Stepping in to avert a plague or earthquakes, I don’t think that’s going to gain you eternal thanks. Not if they are anything like humans, at least. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/86 "2013-08-09T21:37:27Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Maybe they’ll turn out to be Vulcans. Maybe they’ll be Klingons. > Saving a species from utter destruction, maybe. Stepping in to avert a plague or earthquakes, I don’t think that’s going to gain you eternal thanks. > Not if they are anything like humans, at least. There’s a better than 50% chance they will be grateful, I think ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/87 "2013-08-09T22:52:29Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > There’s a better than 50% chance they will be grateful, I think Yes, but the other 50% of the populace will be posting theories on the outerweb about how \*convenient \*it was that the Outsiders _just happened_ to have a cure for that mysterious plague. Could they have planted it here so they could come in like big damn heroes? Just Asking Questions, you know. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/88 "2013-08-09T23:10:25Z")
How long have they been planting plagues, anyway? Decades? Centuries? Do they instigate wars as well? Who are these mysterious strangers who say they want to be our friends? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/89 "2013-08-09T23:14:45Z")
And you just know they are lying about what really happened to Atlantis. With all their knowledge and long-term observations, you can’t believe their denials. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/90 "2013-08-09T23:25:15Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Oh well then what’s the point? Would you send Columbus on a voyage to the orient only to observe and report? If we met a culture, even in prewarp, I’m sure there are ideas that they could present us that would be fascinating and vice versa. Even if the ideas they present are IDENTICAL to our own, there will be something to be gained from knowing that fact alone. If I were Spanish, great idea. If I were a Carib Indian, I’d probably prefer him to stay home. As for the thing you were confused about - most of the people here were born in India or China, went to college here, went to the US for grad school, and never returned to their birthplaces. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/91 "2013-08-10T01:22:22Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Plus, why not let species develop on their own? Why interfere? Suffering and misery and deprivation. > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m sure they would screw things up in a different way. For instance, imagine the aliens saying > > “You still believe in tribal deities? No offense, but really? I need to get the anthropologists here right away!”. Or one alien turns to another and says “Alright Jesus, what did you do your last time here?!” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/92 "2013-08-10T01:25:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or one alien turns to another and says “Alright Jesus, what did you do your last time here?!” Or, “Did Paul screw things up, or what?” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/93 "2013-08-10T02:05:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I have to laugh at the idea a lot of you have that they would just roll in, give us the world and everything would be sweetness and light, because of course, they would be entirely benevolent and wish us only the best. In what Universe does this take place? Because it isn’t this one. > > Of course, that’s exactly what has happened on Earth, right? I mean, there is no poverty, starvation, want or disease anywhere on Earth anymore, right? We’ve given everyone everywhere a good life just because we don’t like to see them suffer? > > Let’s try one example. Suddenly all of our computers are obsolete. Therefore no one buys new computers. Companies have no income. They have no use for their current employees, and no means to pay them. However, they still need to spend billions upgrading their factories, which they have to get from somewhere. No one buys computer software, because they’re waiting for the new computers, which may take years or decades to arrive. So no programmers or software development. More millions out of work. No income tax revenue from the large chunk of society just thrown out of work, all of whom will also be unable to pay their bills. And this is just one segment of society affected. Imagine all of them similarly affected. Insanely large unemployment. Economic crash and panic. People rioting in the streets because they can’t pay their bills or eat. Governments with already large debts brought to their knees because not only did their income plunge beyond the nightmares of the worst depression ever, but because everyone is clamoring for more money (that doesn’t exist). Which of course brings Weimar Germany levels of Hyperinflation as governments try to paper over the abyss. > > Terrorism, looting and riots because of the Ideological and Religious implications of the Aliens and what their imported Philosophies, Ideologies and Religions mean to Earth. Mass suicides because people can’t handle it or are suffering economically. Hell, entire cities burning because people go completely nuts, panic and/or have nothing to lose. > > I don’t believe a single one of you would think it was great if you were actually living through this nightmare. You fail at economics and logic. Why would discovering _money_ is going to become useless make you hoard money? And what kind of idiot goes without a computer because there’s going to be a better one in a few decades time? We already knew that’s going to happen, unless you can’t tell that the latest i7 is a more capable machine than a basic DOS computer from the early 90s. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/94 "2013-08-10T03:22:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Exactly. People who grow up in such a society who contact us aren’t going to be looking to profit off of us, because they aren’t interested in profiting off of _anything._ Profit is not part of their worldview. If they are friendly they’d likely share their technology under the simple theory of “why not?” Oh, God, not that ridiculous “Nobody in the Federation has any wants or needs, and Starfleet is just a little club of people who like to dress up in primary colors and zoom around the universe as a hobby” argument again. Mudd trafficked in the interplanetary sex worker trade. The whole mirror universe episode of TOS dealt with a planet that had stuff the Federation felt they needed. And wasn’t the Horta episode on a mining colony? (or are we to believe that miners are just people with a pickaxe and hard hat fetish?) Clearly, the Federation is not, in fact, a needless society. It’s needs are probably much different than ours, but they certainly exist, and it’s likely that trade between the Federation and a more primitive planet would end up looking like the Manhattan purchase. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/95 "2013-08-10T03:26:48Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You fail at economics and logic. Why would discovering _money_ is going to become useless make you hoard money? And what kind of idiot goes without a computer because there’s going to be a better one in a few decades time? We already knew that’s going to happen, unless you can’t tell that the latest i7 is a more capable machine than a basic DOS computer from the early 90s. I never mentioned hoarding money. Nor ‘decades’ (I said ‘a few years’) You’re the one who failed reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/96 "2013-08-10T03:35:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I never mentioned hoarding money. Then what are you planning on doing with it if not spend it? Eat it? > [@](#): > > Nor ‘decades’ (I said ‘a few years’) You’re the one who failed reading comprehension. “No one buys computer software, because they’re waiting for the new computers, which may take years or decades to arrive.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/97 "2013-08-10T04:03:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then what are you planning on doing with it if not spend it? Eat it? > > “No one buys computer software, because they’re waiting for the new computers, which may take years or decades to arrive.” I give up. It isn’t worth trying to explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/98 "2013-08-10T04:47:01Z")
He’s not the only one confused, **Chimera**. I don’t really understand your narrative either. The fact that we’ve been gifted an alien supercomputer will somehow lead to the collapse of the personal computing machine… how? Secondly, well… yes. The western inventions like the steam engine, automobile, aircraft has been sent to nations that have not discovered it. There was no prime directive for cars. There is one for nuclear weapons though but that doesn’t preclude the US from sharing nuclear power with them. Japan has 55 nuclear plants and not a single weapon. South Korea 20 and weaponless. Canada 18, Germany 17, and Taiwan 6 - all weaponless yet bending the nuclear prime directive for their benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/99 "2013-08-10T05:12:28Z")
It’s hubris to think aliens from across the galaxy will even know the right thing to do once they start to interfere, despite the best intentions. “Worry not. We will see that you die with dignity.” “But I just stubbed my toe!” “DIE WITH DIGNITY!” > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > As Picard said, the PD is intended under normal circumstances to protect the Federation as much as it is the non-starfaring society. Even our best intentions can have enormously bad consequences, and then we’d have to live with that. Better to keep hands off until a society shows itself at least capable of starflight. That’s a workable and bright line for determining when a culture is ready to undergo first contact. > … It’s rarely looked at how the Prime Directive could be a good thing form the Federation viewpoint. The idea is interstellar travel puts you in the big boys club. There are all kinds of technological hurdles to overcome to do that. Even without giving them the technology, if you go down to a planet and tell them we got there by building silicon chips using binary logic, developed anti-matter and warp fields, then those are the technologies they will pursue. Never mind that they had unexpected ideas in the works like micro-diamond circuits based on their peculiar brain anatomy, and vacuum energy slip-streaming. Developing those technologies will look like a waste of time now that they have a sure path to success. Without the PD every emerging race will look pretty much the same. With it, there’s a chance for more diversity. > [@bump](#): > > I agree. It always seemed much more like “Let’s see if they’ll give themselves enough rope to hang themselves.” directive to me. > > I particularly never liked the non-interventionist ideal in situations where intervention was patently in the interest of saving hundreds(thousands, millions, etc…) of sentient beings from natural disasters, avoidable wars, etc… but Starfleet wouldn’t intervene because it was against the Prime Directive. > > Think about it this way- if there was some sort of Starfleet out there now, and there was a planet-killer asteroid headed for Earth, would you want them to not intervene because it might interfere with our development? An asteroid about to destroy an undeveloped planet was the plot to an episode. They put themselves at considerable risk to save them. > [@bump](#): > > Or for that matter, let’s say a technical glitch in 1985 actually started WWIII, and these Starfleet jerks could have stopped it but didn’t? > > Seems kind of morally bankrupt to me. For all their technology the Enterprise didn’t have a planetary glitch detector. Never mind WWIII, which we know nothing about. However, we had a WWII that was pretty well documented. What if Martians, with no prime directive, interfered in WWII? Let’s say they stop the war. Great, lots of people don’t have to die. What do they do then? Do they have to stay here so it doesn’t just start back up as soon as they turn their backs? Or are they going to get rid of the bad German government altogether? If they are going to start setting up governments to suit their own liking, are they going to stop there? Stalin wasn’t such a nice guy, it would be nice to see him go too. But the United States was in the process of building devastating nuclear weapons, so maybe they will have a makeover in mind for us too. Or maybe Hitler got confined to Germany under their watch. By now they may be on their fourth Fuhrer. I can’t imagine the German Jews being happy about living there. The Martians are looking to be helpful, so maybe they offer to relocate them to Rigel 4, but as we know there is a nice bit of Mediterranean property the Jews had their eye on. So, unless they are dictatorial about where the Jews go they will have assumed the responsibility for creating an inevitable Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Once you start interfering you can really get stuck. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637/100 "2013-08-10T15:48:48Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > Once you start interfering you can really get stuck. Who’s interfering? We’re taking over. Check? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starfleets-prime-directive-keep-or-trash/665637.md?page=6)