# Startrek TOS: More Time in Rank, Uhura or Sulu? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284 "2009-06-10T01:20:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/21 "2009-06-10T12:35:07Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > The big demotion in TOS was the promotion of Spock to XO, and the redaction of Barrett’s Number One - can’t have a woman as XO. For which apparently it was offered as justification that _women_ in the test audiences were put off by her character. A bit too far ahead of her time, I guess. As mentioned before, once Sulu offers to have Mr. Scott assume bridge command but Scott demurs; it seems that there is a lot of deference in Starfleet for the CO’s decision as to who is left in charge until it becomes obvious he’s not coming back (heck, later continuities make it seem the CO can do “field” promotions and demotions at will…) ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/22 "2009-06-10T12:36:29Z")
Don’t they just seem to have a lackadaisical approach and say you’re in command while I’m gone. I’d swear Kirk would tell the pursuer bringing the coffee that they were in command if he didn’t spot someone else when he wanted to go to his cabin. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/23 "2009-06-10T16:56:00Z")
Uhura did assume command of the ship in one of the Animated Series episodes, but only once all the men were driven goofy by space sirens. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/24 "2009-06-10T17:16:43Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > The big demotion in TOS was the promotion of Spock to XO, and the redaction of Barrett’s Number One - can’t have a woman as XO. Any explanation in canon for what happened to Number One? I don’t remember seeing anything about her past the pilot other than a book where she talks about “Number One” being her actual real name and not a title. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/25 "2009-06-10T17:24:52Z")
That would be _Vulcan’s Glory_ by D.C. Fontana. There are a number of theories, but since neither the comic books nor the novels are considered canon, what we have is…not much. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/26 "2009-06-10T17:25:08Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Capt Kirk, Cmdr Spock, Lt Cmdr McCoy, and Lt Cmdr Scott are all on an away mission. All that’s left are a couple of lieutenants. Who’s in charge? Sulu. Kirk specifically left him in command during “Errand of Mercy,” when he knew the ship might well be going into combat. That said, I think Uhura technically outranked Sulu; I recall reading something many years ago from Roddenberry to that effect. But she wasn’t on the command track. The real reason is 60s sexism, same as the mini-skirts. The fanwank is that she was more interested in the technical side of things–Diane Duane asserts in one of her novels that she was working on universal translator theory. She didn’t want to be captain or even first officer any more than Scott did. Incidentally, Spock is a Lieutenant Commander in the first season. McCoy is that rank throughout the first series, but he’s not in the chain of command. The closest he ever comes to exercising command is in “The Menagerie,” when Spock tells him that he (McCoy), as the senior officer present, has to give the order to arrest Spock for mutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/27 "2009-06-10T17:34:19Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > It would depend on the question under discussion. Just as Kirk can’t tell McCoy how to treat a patient, so McCoy can’t tell Sulu how to fly a starship. Of course, McCoy does have the authority to unilaterally declare any officer, even the captain, unfit for duty on medical or psychological grounds (presumably pending a review). Spock could not unilaterally remove Kirk from duty; once he and McCoy discuss doing so, but it’s clear that he and McCoy have to agree. I expect that Kirk could arbitrarily and unilaterally relieve any officer from duty with the exception of Spock & McCoy; he’d need one of the two to agree to removing the other. And I also recall that Kirk could had to have the assent of both Spock & Scott to give the self-destruct order. My personal explanation is that, while Scott was clearly second officer, he did not wish to be so, and him being in that position was not ideal. If he had to take command during a battle, for instance, that would be depriving the ship of the chief engineer when repairs were certain to be needed. Regulations required that the second officer be at least a lieutenant commander, but both Scott & Kirk preferred that Sulu being the number 3 guy on the bridge; they simply tolerated the situation until Sulu had the time-in-grade to be promoted. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/28 "2009-06-10T17:46:52Z")
So when Kirk was away we have in order of rank. Spock Scotty Sulu DeSalle (I will bet you credits to navy beans, we can put a dent in it) Mr Leslie (he was in the Big Chair a couple of times) No Uhura No Chekov ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/29 "2009-06-10T18:01:50Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > So when Kirk was away we have in order of rank. > > Spock > Scotty > Sulu > DeSalle (I will bet you credits to navy beans, we can put a dent in it) > Mr Leslie (he was in the Big Chair a couple of times) > > No Uhura > No Chekov Well, in TOS Chekov is but an ensign, and in TOS rank actually meant a little something. That siad, Kirk actually leaves him the conn toward the end of “Journey to Babel,” when the battle is over. Sulu isn’t there for whatever reason, and he ignores Uhura; but I can fanwank that as being because he was in a lot of pain and just wanted to get the hell off the bridge, as earlier in the episode he’d gotten stabbed in the gut. This episode also highlights why Scott being second officer is a bad idea. It’s not that he’s not competent–clearly he is–but if the ship is going to come under fire he’s going to be needed in Engineering. I wouldn’t count DeSalle in that group, by the way, as he only appears once that I can recall. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/30 "2009-06-10T18:40:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I wouldn’t count DeSalle in that group, by the way, as he only appears once that I can recall. The character appears three times, but only assumes command once. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/31 "2009-06-10T18:47:49Z")
Skald, good call on Chekov, I forgot about him “taking over” in Babel. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/32 "2009-06-10T18:56:02Z")
Scotty was also left in command in “The _Enterprise_ Incident” and “Friday’s Child,” and does pretty well for himself, although it’s obvious he’d rather be down in Engineering with his “wee bairns.” Sulu clearly ranks Uhura, especially when the chips are down; in addition to “Errand of Mercy,” he’s left in command in the early scenes of “Arena,” ISTR. Uhura does take command in that TAS episode. Diane Duane’s _Doctor’s Orders_ is a funny and well-written ST novel. Kirk, good-naturedly annoyed by McCoy’s griping about how the captain has the easier job, leaves him in command while Kirk is off-ship. Then Kirk is, uh, unavoidably detained, and McCoy has to deal with some crises. Spock says he cannot relieve McCoy, even if McCoy wishes to relinquish command (which he clearly does), since the captain personally selected him to exercise command. Take a gander: [Doctor's Orders (episode) | Memory Alpha | Fandom](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Doctor%27s_Orders) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/33 "2009-06-10T18:56:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The character appears three times, but only assumes command once. Facts are a crutch for people who can’t handle their LSD. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/34 "2009-06-10T20:07:12Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Scotty was also left in command in “The _Enterprise_ Incident” and “Friday’s Child,” and does pretty well for himself, although it’s obvious he’d rather be down in Engineering with his “wee bairns.” Also in _A Piece of the Action_ and _A Taste of Armageddon_. And probably a few others. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/35 "2009-06-10T20:08:40Z")
I love how in the novel _Kobayashi Maru_, when Scott mentions that he took the test and everyone reacts with surprise, he says, “What, you think they let just \*any \*engineer be third in command?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/36 "2009-06-10T20:10:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I expect that Kirk could arbitrarily and unilaterally relieve any officer from duty with the exception of Spock & McCoy; he’d need one of the two to agree to removing the other. And I also recall that Kirk could had to have the assent of both Spock & Scott to give the self-destruct order. Didn’t Commodore Decker threaten to relieve Spock of duty in **The Doomsday Machine**? He did outrank Kirk. I don’t see why McCoy would have a say in that kind of decision, assuming that nothing medical was involved. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/37 "2009-06-10T20:25:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Didn’t Commodore Decker threaten to relieve Spock of duty in **The Doomsday Machine**? He did outrank Kirk. I don’t see why McCoy would have a say in that kind of decision, assuming that nothing medical was involved. Decker’s not part of the Enterprise chain of command. And he was clearly out of line. As soon as Kirk got wind of it, he was able to undo it. I expect regulations got rewritten afterwards to keep things like that from happening, as in TOS, Geordi – a lieutenant junior grade – remarks once that, while he has the conn, he cannot be relieved against his will by anyone other than Riker or Picard. The series are inconsistent on this issue, of course. By rights, Kirk, Picard, Janeway, & Archer should very rarely leave the ship. About the only time I thought it was justified was in Errand of Mercy, and in that case it was downright criminal of him to take Spock along. I say McCoy has to be involved because of “Obsession,” when he and Spock discuss it. I think the setup would be that way to guarantee checks & balances. This would be more important on Kirk’s Enterprise, which was so far away from a starbase that it would take weeks to get a response. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/38 "2009-06-10T20:41:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Didn’t Commodore Decker threaten to relieve Spock of duty in **The Doomsday Machine**? He did outrank Kirk. I don’t see why McCoy would have a say in that kind of decision, assuming that nothing medical was involved. I recently watched that episode - he did relieve Spock. He was of course nuts and Spock gave up command only reluctantly. They were gonna get McCoy to declare him unfit for duty on the basis of him being suicidal, but that didn’t pan out. Instead, Kirk gave Spock a direct order to relieve Commodore Decker. Decker protests that he can’t do that according to regulations, and Kirk says “blast regulations!”. At that point Spock lays down the law and has security escort him out. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/39 "2009-06-10T21:13:14Z")
In wet Navies, which is what Gene Roddenberry based Starfleet on, a clear distinction is made between line and staff (specialty) officers. While McCoy or Scott may issue orders commensurate with their rank under the right circumstances (“Spock is showing clear symptoms of Mysterious Vulcan Ailment Made Up For the Occasion Which Vauses Temporary Insanity; relieve him immediately!”), they would not ordinarily take command. However, in several episodes Scotty does take the Captain’s Chair in the absence of Kirk or Spock, so it’s presumable that either he also has line command in his background or that in Starfleet engineers qualify as line officers. That said, Lt. Sulu is clearly shown as fourth in command, and being groomed for an eventual independent command. (Spock is either a line officer occupying the Science billet by personal interest and skill, or line officers also are trained to hold the Science chair, which makes sense, since the Enterprise is not a warship but a multi-mission vessel with science and exploration as primary mission tasks and warshipry n important secondary task. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284/40 "2009-06-10T22:10:40Z")
Hmmmm… I seem to recall Uhura being told to take the conn ONCE by Kirk, and only briefly. I believe it was in season 2, but I cannot recall the episode. I am slowly watching them all (in reverse order–no idea why) and remember this happening because it was so unusual. Agree that McCoy (or any ship’s doc) is out of the line of command. Answer me this: what exactly is the difference between Sulu and Chekov? One of the plots the courses and the other readies the weaponry, but what are their positions? And does one outrank the other? Thanks– Rigs, with no military background whatsoever. Does it show? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/startrek-tos-more-time-in-rank-uhura-or-sulu/499284.md?page=3)