# Starving Artist: Totally Insane? Or Just Almost? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678 "2008-10-13T05:04:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/301 "2008-10-19T09:44:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > How many people have been brutally killed, and how many of their family members’ and loved ones’ lives have been made miserable by, slayings committed by gangs whose existence is defended on the grounds of anti-racism? (It’s perfectly alright to outlaw the Klan, but man you better keep your keep your damn racist hands off the Crips and the Bloods.) I’m considerably unaware of the various gang/group laws over there. To what extent are the Klan outlawed whilst the Crips/Bloods/similar are not? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/302 "2008-10-19T10:04:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m considerably unaware of the various gang/group laws over there. To what extent are the Klan outlawed whilst the Crips/Bloods/similar are not? To the best of my knowledge, neither are outlawed. There have been, IIRC, movements advocated by the left to outlaw the Klan. Not sure why they haven’t come to fruition. I have seen it proposed by members of the right to outlaw the Crips and Bloods. These were met, typically, with accusations of racism from the left. This is anecdotal and based only upon what I’ve seen, however, so perhaps you should keep in mind that they therefore never really happened. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/303 "2008-10-19T10:22:00Z")
Surely, then, your argument there relies on the lefties who are trying to outlaw the Klan being the _same_ lefties that are accusing the right of racism? ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/304 "2008-10-19T10:23:12Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > To the best of my knowledge, neither are outlawed. There have been, IIRC, movements advocated by the left to outlaw the Klan. Not sure why they haven’t come to fruition. I have seen it proposed by members of the right to outlaw the Crips and Bloods. These were met, typically, with accusations of racism from the left. Yeah, [it’s not like any major cities have anti-gang units or anything.](http://www.lapdonline.org/rampart_community_police_station) > [@](#): > > This is anecdotal and based only upon what I’ve seen, however, so perhaps you should keep in mind that they therefore never really happened. :rolleyes: What you see depends on what you look for. For example, LAPD apparently makes use of [gang injunctions](http://www.lapdonline.org/gang_injunctions)to control the behavior of gangs. Maybe there is liberal opposition to such things, but obviously the opposition is insufficient to prevent these measures from actually being put into place. Which, you know, kind of undermines your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/305 "2008-10-19T10:30:45Z")
If the entire country was comprised only of Los Angeles, you might have a point. But on second thought, no, you don’t. You know why? Because I’m talking about opposition to proposed federal laws, not police policies in some town or another. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/306 "2008-10-19T10:34:11Z")
And now **Hector** , it’s time for me to bid everyone a good and happy night. Goodnight, **S&I**. Goodnight, **RT**. 🙂 Goodnight, Sarah. Goodnight, John-boy! Love ya, **Zoe**! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/307 "2008-10-19T10:34:26Z")
**SA** , do you want to revise your opinion that The Beatles were responsible for the decline of Western Civilisation? I was thinking you may have forgot about that Elvis fella, pretending to be a black man and wantonly shaking his hips everywhere he went? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/308 "2008-10-19T10:38:05Z")
'Night! The thing i’m most concerned about with this Beatles reference is that it was an invasion. What kind of wretched hive of scum and villainy could these monstrous mopheads have come from? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/309 "2008-10-19T10:39:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > **SA** , do you want to revise your opinion that The Beatles were responsible for the decline of Western Civilisation? I was thinking you may have forgot about that Elvis fella, pretending to be a black man and wantonly shaking his hips everywhere he went? Nah…he was only responsible for duck’s-ass haircuts and real life Fonzies. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/310 "2008-10-19T10:43:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > 'Night! > > The thing i’m most concerned about with this Beatles reference is that it was an invasion. What kind of wretched hive of scum and villainy could these monstrous mopheads have come from? Who’d have thunk the 4 horsemen would have had mop-tops though? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/311 "2008-10-19T10:44:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > 'Night! > > The thing i’m most concerned about with this Beatles reference is that it was an invasion. What kind of wretched hive of scum and villainy could these monstrous mopheads have come from? I’m speaking of the so-called ‘British invasion’ that followed in the wake of the Beatles. You know, the _Stones_, the _Who_, the _What_, the _Why_, etc. And now, believe it or not, I’m out. Take care. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/312 "2008-10-19T10:53:53Z")
I’m getting a vibe that **SA** is more of a Country and Western type of guy. He wants more songs about non-cowardly, gun-toting, treachery-despising, one-woman loving, good old white boys…how sweet! ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/313 "2008-10-19T10:59:11Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m getting a vibe that **SA** is more of a Country and Western type of guy. He wants more songs about non-cowardly, gun-toting, treachery-despising, one-woman loving, good old white boys…how sweet! You would be wrong about that. I love the Beatles, just not their aftermath. Having said that, however, I’m blessed with the ability to like almost everything, with smooth jazz predominating these days. Never been much of a country fan, though. And now, to paraphrase **luci** , how can you miss me if you won’t let me go away? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/314 "2008-10-19T11:10:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You would be wrong about that. I love the Beatles, just not their aftermath. Now that is confusing! How can you find appeal in something you believe has been so detrimental to the society you love, and want to protect? If I’d thought The Doors were responsible for Thatcher’s Britain, I’d never want to hear Jim Morrison again?! > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And now, to paraphrase **luci** , how can you miss me if you won’t let me go away? S’okay. You do your thing - we’ll just talk about you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/315 "2008-10-19T11:15:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Now that is confusing! How can you find appeal in something you believe has been so detrimental to the society you love, and want to protect? If I’d thought The Doors were responsible for Thatcher’s Britain, I’d never want to hear Jim Morrison again?! What can I say? I’m just a free-spirited, open-minded kind of conservative. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > S’okay. You do your thing - we’ll just talk about you. 😉 Okay, have at it! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/316 "2008-10-19T11:21:26Z")
Compare these two statements by **SA** and tell me if you spot the rhetorical trick: > [@](#): > > \ ***Those photos do not typify societal behavior of that time. Even today there exists plenty of people who are capable of the same type of behavior, and they no more define society at large than the people in the photos above did.** > > It’s amusing to note that of all the ills I’ve lain at the feet of liberalism, virtually all the attention gets paid to my comments about societal crassness and everyone acts like I’d gladly trade the worst of yesteryear for a few polite manners. This is not only false, but IMO it’s a deliberate attempt to trivialize and marginalize my complaints about the damage the left has done to this society over the last forty years. > > Do you think the people depicted in those photos suffered? Do you think their family members and loved ones suffered because of what happened to them? If so, I can tell you that the pain and suffering caused by wrongheaded liberalism over the last forty years is worse by many thousandfold. > > **How many people have been brutally killed, and how many of their family members’ and loved ones’ lives have been made miserable by, slayings committed by gangs whose existence is defended on the grounds of anti-racism? (It’s perfectly alright to outlaw the Klan, but man you better keep your keep your damn racist hands off the Crips and the Bloods.)**\* > [@](#): > > \*To the best of my knowledge, neither are outlawed. **There have been, IIRC, movements advocated by the left to outlaw the Klan. Not sure why they haven’t come to fruition. I have seen it proposed by members of the right to outlaw the Crips and Bloods. These were met, typically, with accusations of racism from the left.** > > This is anecdotal and based only upon what I’ve seen, however, so perhaps you should keep in mind that they therefore never really happened.\* Do you see it? I’ve no doubt that there exist a few crackpot leftist out there who would argue that banning the Crips and Bloods would be “racist.” I’ve never seen such an argument myself, but I don’t doubt it exists. But here’s the thing: no average, middle-of-the-road American liberal would think it reasonable to ban the Klan but racist to ban a criminal inner-city gang. Such a position in no way represents mainstream liberal thought. When we provide mounds of evidence – photos, films, etc – which show how racist and and uncivilized the right has been throughout US history (including film of average McCain supporters standing in line for a rally with, for example, an Obama monkey doll), **SA** waves it all away as not being “typical” of society at the time. Then he turns around and accuses liberals of supporting the most ridiculous, extreme sort of policies because of some vague memory he has that at some point in the past, somewhere, he read something about someone who felt that way. Our examples are \*never \*typical of right-wing conservative thought/behavior, regardless of how widespread they were; his examples are \*always \*typical of left-wing liberal thought/behavior, regardless of how rarely they occurred. And he’s genuinely uninterested in know what liberals really think. I mean, it couldn’t be that hard to simply ask here, on a board he claims leans so terribly hard to the left, whether or not the majority of posters think it would racist to ban the Crips. He doesn’t care what we _really_ think; he just wants to demonize us. Another fun trick **SA** likes to play is the “modify my argument” game. Here’s an example: **SA:** > [@](#): > > _To the best of my knowledge, neither are outlawed. There have been, IIRC, movements advocated by the left to outlaw the Klan. Not sure why they haven’t come to fruition. I have seen it proposed by members of the right to outlaw the Crips and Bloods. These were met, typically, with accusations of racism from the left._ **S&I:** > [@](#): > > \*Yeah, it’s not like any major cities have anti-gang units or anything… > > What you see depends on what you look for. For example, LAPD apparently makes use of gang injunctions to control the behavior of gangs. Maybe there is liberal opposition to such things, but obviously the opposition is insufficient to prevent these measures from actually being put into place. Which, you know, kind of undermines your argument. > \* **SA:** > [@](#): > > \*If the entire country was comprised only of Los Angeles, you might have a point. > > But on second thought, no, you don’t. > > You know why? Because I’m talking about opposition to proposed federal laws, not police policies in some town or another.\* See the trick? Suddenly, evidence presented contrary to his position doesn’t count, because he was _talking about something different_. In fact, Los Angeles isn’t the only major city in the US with those sorts of policies: they’ve been so successful we’ve been copying them all the way over here in Sweden. But it doesn’t matter, because as we can see, **S&I** is clearly misrepresenting **SA’s** argument. Only, he/she isn’t. He/she is merely responding to argument **SA** originally made. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/317 "2008-10-19T11:27:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If the entire country was comprised only of Los Angeles, you might have a point. > > But on second thought, no, you don’t. > > You know why? Because I’m talking about opposition to proposed federal laws, not police policies in some town or another. It seemed relevant since LA is the home of both the Crips and the Bloods. But I’ll admit to being too lazy to look around to see what initiatives other cities have take to combat gang violence. (I’m not sure what difference it makes if the initiatives are federal or local. If liberal influence is so pervasive and so opposed to interventions in gangs, then it seems like it would prevent local initiatives, as well. But like I said, I am too lazy to research the issue.) ETA: I see \*\*Mr. Svinlesha’s \*\*got my back. (I’m a he, BTW. Unless \*\*LP \*\*thinks I’m an emasculated liberal half-man, or something.) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/318 "2008-10-19T11:30:05Z")
Well, I was reserving judgement as long as I could, but having read post #297, I am finally ready to cast my vote: Insane. Thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/319 "2008-10-19T11:30:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What can I say? I’m just a free-spirited, open-minded kind of conservative. > Okay, have at it! Free-spirited. Open-minded. Conservative? What’s this - guess the odd one out? "One o’ these things is not like the other. One o’ these things just isn’t the same… " ( The “kind of” was an interesting modifier!) ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678/320 "2008-10-19T11:30:55Z")
Starving Artist, why do you not answer my question? I’ve considered several reasons. A few: ``` Insufficient post count to hobnob with the BigBoys 'o the Board. Too short a member status which hardly seems to matter presently. You are too busy responding in defense of your sanity whilst attending to other life matters unlike other posters. Likelihood the response won't generate the interaction you prefer. I'm chopped liver. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/starving-artist-totally-insane-or-just-almost/467678.md?page=17)