[QUOTE=fervour]
I don’t begrudge state workers their holidays. The state of Alabama has three holidays glorifying bigotry. In January when everyone else is celebrating Martin Luther King, Jr’s birthday, Alabama is celebrating MLK/ General Robert E. Lee day. That pisses me off so much. Lee who chose his allegiance based on whichever way his home state went is being celebrated. He might have been a good military tactition but what a twisted sense of morality he had. He chose state over country; state over ideals; state over everything else. I could understand Virginia celebrating his life, but Alabama??
Today, the state is closed for Confederate Memorial Day. The Monday after the National Memorial Day, Alabama will be closed for Jefferson Davis’s birthday. There is no good reason at all to celebrate this man’s life. I’d love to give state employees two personal days in exchange for Confederate Memorial Day and Jefferson Davis’s Birthday, as well as, drop RLee from MLK day. Do you think that will happen? I’m not holding my breath. There are way too many assholes in this state who like it just the way it is. I fully expect to hear from them later in this thread. I could be wrong though.
edited: to=too, ugh changed wrong “to”
[/QUOTE]
Whether or not you agree with the decisions they made at the time, I don’t think you can effectively argue that Robert E. Lee is undeserving of historical recognition and some level of respect. He may have been on the wrong side of history, but he was a moral man and a superb leader of men. To complain that he had a “twisted morality” for having greater allegiance to his state is kind of silly in the context of the time, especially considering that you’re viewing it through a 100+ year old lens.
[QUOTE=astro]
Whether or not you agree with the decisions they made at the time, I don’t think you can effectively argue that Robert E. Lee is undeserving of historical recognition and some level of respect. He may have been on the wrong side of history, but he was a moral man and a superb leader of men. To complain that he had a “twisted morality” for having greater allegiance to his state is kind of silly in the context of the time, especially considering that you’re viewing it through a 100+ year old lens.
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But he swore allegiance to the Union. And broke that oath. At least, I assume officers swore allegiance before the Civil War - if I am wrong someone will correct me I am sure.
I’m not sure I buy the superb leader of men, either (to the extent that while I am not saying he was a bad General, I don’t tihnk he is as much the genius as he is often claimed to be). I always thought the idiocy at the end of Gettysburg should be referred to as Lee’s Charge.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Germany and Japan both would just as soon take whole unpleasant periods and pretend they never ever happened at all.
[/QUOTE]
This is totally false as regards to the Germans. You don’t get people in mainstream Germany having Third Reich Memorial Days and arguing that it wasn’t about the Jews.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Germany and Japan both would just as soon take whole unpleasant periods and pretend they never ever happened at all.
[/quote]
Completely anecdotal, but when I visited Pearl Harbor, there were easily as many Japanese as American tourists. They all seemed very interested in everything about the place. I wanted to get annoyed, then reminded myself that it’s their history, too… still rubbed the wrong way, a bit, but… eh.
I’m not saying pretend it didn’t happen. I’m saying don’t spend tax dollars celebrating it.
[QUOTE=villa]
This is totally false as regards to the Germans. You don’t get people in mainstream Germany having Third Reich Memorial Days and arguing that it wasn’t about the Jews.
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Perhaps I should clarify what I meant there.
Germans have gone through this “soul-seeking” process twice in relatively recent history, and while I think it is pretty clear that they came to terms with the Nazi period relatively quickly, I think it is also pretty clear that many people there wanted to put the whole East German experience behind them without totally examining all of the nasty things that regime did.
The number of people wanting to see their Stasi files took an initial upswing, and then dropped way down - it took the release of a popular movie to bring these requests up again. Now, maybe I’m reading too much into this.
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Apparently, he just assumed we wouldn’t object, which told me something about how pervasive racism must be in his circles.
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[QUOTE=Ogre]
There are still many, many families who remember their terrible losses during the Civil War. They know exactly who died, where they died, and they still honor their memories as family members and as soldiers. And however you feel about it, PLEASE do not dismiss the idea with the old “well, they were fighting for slavery” trope. It’s simply not true for the vast majority of Confederate soldiers.
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I don’t know what to make of this. The Union suffered heavier casualties than the Confederacy, but the idea of a state holiday in New York, for example, is laughable.
What did the Confederate soldiers die for? Nothing, really.
For what it’s worth, state workers in Alabama haven’t asked for all these days off … many of them were given in lieu of raises in years when the state budget was shot to pieces.
And it always amazes me in threads like this, when people show up and talk about the horrible racism in Alabama (or the South in general). Apparently they visited/lived/worked in areas I don’t frequent.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Perhaps I should clarify what I meant there.
Germans have gone through this “soul-seeking” process twice in relatively recent history, and while I think it is pretty clear that they came to terms with the Nazi period relatively quickly, I think it is also pretty clear that many people there wanted to put the whole East German experience behind them without totally examining all of the nasty things that regime did.
The number of people wanting to see their Stasi files took an initial upswing, and then dropped way down - it took the release of a popular movie to bring these requests up again. Now, maybe I’m reading too much into this.
But maybe not.
[/QUOTE]
That is certainly a fairer point - I’ll admit to assuming you were talking about the WWII period because of your mention of Japan as well.
The revisionism regarding the CSA has been pretty pervasive though, especially with the taint that has been plaecd on Reconstruction.
[QUOTE=Blank Slate]
I don’t know what to make of this. The Union suffered heavier casualties than the Confederacy, but the idea of a state holiday in New York, for example, is laughable.
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What’s so laughable about it? These private and state commemorations, generally called Decoration Day, became Memorial Day. People in the South did not want to mark this day on the same day as Notherners, so they chose another day generally known now as Confederate Memorial Day.
In years past, one or the other were generally observed. With intervening wars and a federal holiday, this distinction is falling by the wayside except for the actual honoring of Confederate veterans, which some people wish to do on the old seperate holiday.
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Blah. I lived in Alabama for a year and found the level of racism there to be pretty astonishing. The first thing we saw, upon arrival, was a car with a bumper sticker saying, “I have a dream” along with a picture of the Alabama state house flying the Confederate battle flag. Then one of the guys unloading our moving truck treated us to a lengthy discourse on how lazy niggers are, and how they never do any work, etc. Apparently, he just assumed we wouldn’t object, which told me something about how pervasive racism must be in his circles. Finally, while we were there, Alabama had a referendum to remove its anti-miscegenation statutes from the books (which had been invalidated by the courts anyhow). 40% of voters voted to keep the laws on the books. No offense, BamaDopers, but I shook the dust of that state from my sandals pronto.
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I was in Boston, and was treated to a similar screed from a Bostonian. This was in a bar while I was there for a job interview. He also included “kikes,” “greasers,” and “wetbacks” in his discussion.
What’s weird is that nobody else has a holiday that day. Not the public schools, not the banks - only the State (and some Cities). It’s a pain to email someone and get no reply - then realize “Darn, they’re off today”. It is a dumb holiday, if you’re trying to get any work done.
It didn’t bother me a bit to see so many Japanese tourists at Pearl Harbor. It’s their history, too and I believe sufficient time has passed. If I were in Japan, I’d want to visit Hiroshima memorials (unless it was a cultural no-no).
All history should be remembered but not necessarily celebrated. Some of the concentration camps are still around as a constant reminder of what happened. It may serve as a reminder of where we once were.
[QUOTE=Ogre]
I was in Boston, and was treated to a similar screed from a Bostonian. This was in a bar while I was there for a job interview. He also included “kikes,” “greasers,” and “wetbacks” in his discussion.
So, you were saying?
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Just to get it straight, are you saying the entire country is basically the same when it comes to levels of racism? The entire world? Or is it just that Boston happens to be as bad as Alabama. Honestly just curious.