# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 113
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2241 "2013-07-15T20:20:54Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > This is what I don’t understand, and I’m not trying to be an ass here. I’m not trying to argue the verdict. I don’t like it, but I accept it. > > Do agree that following a random person around, no matter what the distance, is menacing? Didn’t Martin have the right to defend himself because of that? Or no questions asked he had to run. It would seem to make sense to me to just assume my life is in danger if some random person is following me. I would take action from there, sometimes you may run, but sometimes you may defend yourself. Part of the problem is your unspoken assumption that when two people fight, only one of them can claim self-defense. Even assuming that Martin was lawfully privileged to sucker-punch Zimmerman and pound his head into the sidewalk, it does not necessarily follow that Zimmerman did not have the right to use lethal force to defend himself. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2242 "2013-07-15T20:29:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What I do not accept is that there isn’t sufficient proof floating out there in the public ether that can speak to him being one way or the other. Three dozen people interviewed by the FBI. Not one could point to anything “racist” either said or done by Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2243 "2013-07-15T20:37:22Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > His actions and words say otherwise. Which words? Asshole? Fucking punks? Those aren’t racially specific. > [@](#): > > You premise is founded on biased principles. You see the justice system as desperate and searching for a reason to convict him. I see it as, much like the OJ civil case, a trial that should go forward because he may be convicted of lesser charges without such stringent qualifications. He won’t face as harsh a penalty, so it all evens out at the end. Unless you are speaking out against being able to sue someone civilly at all. Are you? He can’t be _convicted_ of any lesser charge. He’s been found Not Guilty of 2nd Degree Murder and the lesser included charge of manslaughter. There are no more charges to convict him on. The only thing that could (but won’t) happen is that he be found _liable_ for damages. The only penalty is financial. The most likely scenario, as I see it, it that Trayvon’s parents bring a suit, Zimmerman claims immunity at a pre-trial hearing, he is found immune, and Trayvon’s parents are liable for fees, charges and expenses (which happens automatically upon the granting of immunity–he doesn’t even need to sue). > [@](#): > > Of course there are legal criteria for proof and I accept that. I accept that they didn’t prove Zimmerman was guilty. I accept that the jury may disregard whether or not he is a racist in their verdict. What I do not accept is that there isn’t sufficient proof floating out there in the public ether that can speak to him being one way or the other. There is no evidence _whatsoever_ that points to Zimmerman being a racist. I’m not going to re-quote it all, but you can find it easily enough. > [@](#): > > And they were correct to, because it was racially motivated. It just so happens we require a higher standard of evidence to use that as a consideration in court. Fine, I accept the verdict in that respect. But I still am convinced Zimmerman is a racist Give me one iota of proof that this is true. Note: “asshole” and “fucking punks” is not proof. > [@](#): > > “Pander”, like the word “propaganda”, is only used when you disagree with something. That’s ok too, I use it that way as well. So in this case, it wasn’t pander, it was Sharpton rightly bringing the racial element of the case to supporters of Trayvon. You believe that bringing a racial element into this trial was appropriate? Well, then, I’m not going to debate that with you. I don’t feel you would be open to any kind of contradiction to your _opinion._ > [@](#): > > That’s all it was, a mistake. It happens. Would you have that be made illegal? It sounds a little like incitement. I believe there would be other laws it may have violated. > [@](#): > > That’s a huge simplification of what happened. And besides, being stalked in the dark by a gun-wielding lunatic affords one some leeway in language Simplification doesn’t mean it was incorrect. It wasn’t. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman is a “gun-wielding lunatic.” In fact, the fact that he passed a background check and completed a concealed carry class would argue otherwise. And, the language leeway you mentioned…does that apply to everyone? If so, your ONLY argument that points to racism is negated. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2244 "2013-07-15T20:38:35Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > **Stoid,** > > I have to ask…are you Nancy Grace in real life? \ Heaven forfend. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2245 "2013-07-15T20:58:36Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > … > > _Quote: > Originally Posted by doorhinge > Entertainers like Spike Lee published Zimmerman’s home address in an effort to foster violence. Except it was the WRONG Zimmerman. Oops._ > > That’s all it was, a mistake. It happens. Would you have that be made illegal? > That’s a huge simplification of what happened. And besides, being stalked in the dark by a gun-wielding lunatic affords one some leeway in language A mistake? Really? Seriously? Why do you think Spike Lee published Zimmerman’s address? As a public service? To whom? The lynch mob-types? The protestors? Insurance salesmen? Spike Lee targeted the Zimmermans and the Zimmerman’s home. Is that illegal? If the lynch mob-types had stormed the wrong Zimmerman’s home, burnt it to the ground, or beat the residents, Lee could have been charge with instigating the violence and he could have been fianancially responsible for damages. As I understand it, Spike Lee settled with the “wrong” Zimmermans before the “wrong” Zimmerman’s sued him. Spike Lee F’ed up big time. It was never discussed in court why TM would have left the relative security of the area next to his daddy fiance house to travel some 300 feet to confront GZ, let alone a “gun-wielding lunatic” GZ. When do you think GZ first displayed his firearm? Do you believe TM spotted it from 300 feet away? Why didn’t TM mention the gun to Jeantel? ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2246 "2013-07-15T21:13:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > \ Heaven forfend. I learned a word. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2247 "2013-07-15T21:18:52Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > I learned a word. Thanks. Anytime. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2248 "2013-07-15T22:01:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > A mistake? Really? Seriously? ? Yea, yea, just horrible, Im wiping tears from my eyes as I type this,.. however, it was not half as big a ‘mistake’ as SOME people make…:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2249 "2013-07-15T22:09:38Z")
Wow, karma is a bitch, man…from what everyone and even his own lawyers are saying.it looks like for the moment, georgie is in some way tasting what its like to be profiled…he cant go out looking like who he is, because chances are, that wont turn out well for him. Gasp, it could be deadly for gz to just walk to a store, you know like say, a 711 to buy a cold drink and snack…he would have to look like someone other than what he really looks like to stand a chance of keeping his head in one piece. Just like if tm had worn a blond wig and made himself look other than what he is that night, if he had looked white then he wouldve made it home…wow, karma really can be a bitch ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2250 "2013-07-15T22:29:32Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Yea, yea, just horrible, Im wiping tears from my eyes as I type this,.. however, it was not half as big a ‘mistake’ as SOME people make…:dubious: Spike Lee deliberately targeted an elderly couple that he hadn’t met, he didn’t know, and who had nothing to do with the TM/GZ case. Why? Because they were white? Because they had a jewish name? Because Spike Lee is an asshole? Lee is very lucky that he didn’t end up facing prison time if Lee’s action had lead to a tragedy. Maybe Lee could testify that he’s never heard GZ hate anyone because of their race? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2251 "2013-07-15T23:16:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Three dozen people interviewed by the FBI. Not one could point to anything “racist” either said or done by Zimmerman. > [@Rysdad](#): > > Which words? Asshole? Fucking punks? Those aren’t racially specific. > > … > There is no evidence _whatsoever_ that points to Zimmerman being a racist. I’m not going to re-quote it all, but you can find it easily enough. > > Give me one iota of proof that this is true. Note: “asshole” and “fucking punks” is not proof. The fact that GZ referred to the belief that “these assholes always get away”. What assholes? Teenagers? Hoodie wearers? The fact that earlier in the tape, he was asked, once, what race this person is and he said black, then later on in the tape, completely unprompted, he repeats that TM is a black male indicates, to me, racial profiling. I’m unmoved by the interviews of people, as even ardent racists can keep their mouth shut when in the company of others. The key pieces of evidence from the tape that, to me, indicates a racial bias, is the repeating of TM’s race unprompted the 2nd time, the reference to “these assholes” which does not seem to be indicating anything else other than race, and the fact he clearly disobeyed the orders of the 911 dispatcher to stay away tells me he was angry, wanted to get TM, and was motivated by something else other than simple do-gooder justice. If GZ did not repeat TM’s race unprompted, or if he didn’t stalk TM, or even if the 911 didn’t tell him to stay put, and the whole “these assholes”, which we all know is code for “these people”, shows me that GZ wanted to get TM not because he was a random kid, but because he was black. GZ put himself in that position to use his gun, and now we have a dead kid and no justice. That’s how I see it > [@Rysdad](#): > > He can’t be _convicted_ of any lesser charge. He’s been found Not Guilty of 2nd Degree Murder and the lesser included charge of manslaughter. There are no more charges to convict him on. The only thing that could (but won’t) happen is that he be found _liable_ for damages. The only penalty is financial. > > The most likely scenario, as I see it, it that Trayvon’s parents bring a suit, Zimmerman claims immunity at a pre-trial hearing, he is found immune, and Trayvon’s parents are liable for fees, charges and expenses (which happens automatically upon the granting of immunity–he doesn’t even need to sue). He can be convicted of basically the same thing OJ was convicted of the 2nd time. I’d like to see GZ pay the rest of his lifesavings and most of his earnings to TM’s parents for what I believe was his irresponsibility in escalating the situation to TM’s ultimate demise. Civil cases, I believe, have a lower threshold of guilt, so just like OJ, its entirely possible he can be acquitted of the capital charges but convicted of the lesser on the same evidence > [@Rysdad](#): > > You believe that bringing a racial element into this trial was appropriate? Well, then, I’m not going to debate that with you. I don’t feel you would be open to any kind of contradiction to your _opinion._ I believe it was appropriate to bring in the racial element because I’m convinced that it was racial profiling on GZ’s part to go after TM. When it is factually racially motivated as I believe it was, then it is proper to bring in the racial element as context > [@Rysdad](#): > > It sounds a little like incitement. I believe there would be other laws it may have violated. If what Spike Lee did was illegal, then a case should be brought against him. I have no problem with that > [@Rysdad](#): > > Simplification doesn’t mean it was incorrect. It wasn’t. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman is a “gun-wielding lunatic.” In fact, the fact that he passed a background check and completed a concealed carry class would argue otherwise. And, the language leeway you mentioned…does that apply to everyone? If so, your ONLY argument that points to racism is negated. In this case, simplification did mean it was incorrect. To me, that someone can pass a background check doesn’t mean he’s not a lunatic, nor does it mean he didn’t become one after he passed the class. Given what he said in the 911 tapes and what he did, I’m convince he is a lunatic. As for the language, since GZ initiated contact and provoked the whole thing, TM’s language is forgiveable, GZ’s is not > [@doorhinge](#): > > A mistake? Really? Seriously? Why do you think Spike Lee published Zimmerman’s address? As a public service? To whom? The lynch mob-types? The protestors? Insurance salesmen? Spike Lee targeted the Zimmermans and the Zimmerman’s home. I think Spike Lee did it out of anger and wasn’t thinking. I don’t think he did it maliciously because I don’t think he was thinking clearly at the time. But by all means, if people feel he committed a crime to do what he did, bring charges to him, I won’t lose any sleep over it if he is convicted > [@doorhinge](#): > > Is that illegal? If the lynch mob-types had stormed the wrong Zimmerman’s home, burnt it to the ground, or beat the residents, Lee could have been charge with instigating the violence and he could have been fianancially responsible for damages. As I understand it, Spike Lee settled with the “wrong” Zimmermans before the “wrong” Zimmerman’s sued him. Spike Lee F’ed up big time. To answer the question, apparently its not illegal. No charges have been filed against Lee nor are charges apparently forthcoming. In the eyes of the law, it either wasn’t illegal or it wasn’t worth pursuing. It was probably seen as a mistake, nothing more. If people had stormed the wrong home due to what Lee did, then I’m sure charges would have been brought. As it stands, Lee settled it somehow and that’s why there are no charges. > [@doorhinge](#): > > It was never discussed in court why TM would have left the relative security of the area next to his daddy fiance house to travel some 300 feet to confront GZ, let alone a “gun-wielding lunatic” GZ. When do you think GZ first displayed his firearm? Do you believe TM spotted it from 300 feet away? Why didn’t TM mention the gun to Jeantel? Given that we know GZ stalked him, initiating the rest of what happened, I would say it is much much more likely that TM’s actions were simply in response to a dangerous armed man stalking him in the night. TM didn’t start anything, he just reacted, so it is much more proper to view TM’s actions as a response to GZ and therefore, understandably aggressive. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2252 "2013-07-15T23:17:29Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Spike Lee deliberately targeted an elderly couple that he hadn’t met, he didn’t know, and who had nothing to do with the TM/GZ case. Why? Because they were white? Because they had a jewish name? Because Spike Lee is an asshole? Lee is very lucky that he didn’t end up facing prison time if Lee’s action had lead to a tragedy. > > Maybe Lee could testify that he’s never heard GZ hate anyone because of their race? Lee didn’t deliberately target the elderly couple. The fact is, he posted the address thinking it belonged to GZ, a mistake, that he owned up to and apparently settled. If anything, he tried to deliberately target GZ but failed ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2253 "2013-07-16T00:02:56Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The fact that GZ referred to the belief that “these assholes always get away”. What assholes? Teenagers? Hoodie wearers? The fact that earlier in the tape, he was asked, once, what race this person is and he said black, then later on in the tape, completely unprompted, he repeats that TM is a black male indicates, to me, racial profiling. I’m unmoved by the interviews of people, as even ardent racists can keep their mouth shut when in the company of others. > > The key pieces of evidence from the tape that, to me, indicates a racial bias, is the repeating of TM’s race unprompted the 2nd time, the reference to “these assholes” which does not seem to be indicating anything else other than race, and the fact he clearly disobeyed the orders of the 911 dispatcher to stay away tells me he was angry, wanted to get TM, and was motivated by something else other than simple do-gooder justice. If GZ did not repeat TM’s race unprompted, or if he didn’t stalk TM, or even if the 911 didn’t tell him to stay put, and the whole “these assholes”, which we all know is code for “these people”, shows me that GZ wanted to get TM not because he was a random kid, but because he was black. GZ put himself in that position to use his gun, and now we have a dead kid and no justice. That’s how I see it. Two utterances describing a suspicious person given in response to a question asked by the NEN operator is hardly the stuff that federal charges would be based on. It could be argued that because GZ’s first response was that GZ “thought” the guy was black, (he was unsure) the 2nd response came after GZ had gotten a better look at TM. 1) I think he’s black. 2) He’s black. “These assholes” could be just as easily mean that GZ was referring to “suspicous persons” or “burglars” or “thieves”. GZ does have a history of working with his black, latino, and white neighbors. GZ has also mentored several black children. Several of GZ’s black neighbors testified for GZ at the trial. Federal charges of racial hatred would be difficult to prove if black friends are willing to testify for him. GZ definately profiled TM. GZ profiled TM as a suspicious person. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2254 "2013-07-16T00:09:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > …Given that we know GZ stalked him, initiating the rest of what happened, I would say it is much much more likely that TM’s actions were simply in response to a dangerous armed man stalking him in the night. TM didn’t start anything, he just reacted, so it is much more proper to view TM’s actions as a response to GZ and therefore, understandably aggressive. Assumping that Jeantel’s testimony given at the trial is believable, GZ must have been stalking TM from some 300 feet away. TM’s reaction was to close the distance, confront GZ near the “T”, and break his nose. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2255 "2013-07-16T04:12:48Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > Just the same as the defense claimed Trayvon should have retreated to safety. Actually it was Martin who claimed to have retreated to safety per Dee Dee’s testimony. You seem to miss the fact that there is no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin south toward Martin’s house. Both claim they lost sight of each other and when Martin hear’s Zimmerman again it’s at the top of the T. Care to venture how that happened? What is the likelihood that Zimmerman dragged Martin 300 feet back to this location without any screaming or shouting heard versus the likelihood that troubled 17 hear old who likes to fight and billed himself as NO\_LIMIT\_NIGGA walked back under his own power to confront the person he referred to as a crazy-ass-cracker. -The right thing to do when seeing a suspicious person is to call the police. Zimmerman did, Martin did not. -the right thing to do was to avoid direct contact. Zimmerman did, Martin did not. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2256 "2013-07-16T04:35:36Z")
Magiver, it appears you drank the kool aid. I used to love grape flavor kool aid as a kid, but I digress…lets see, what comes to mind, all of the lies gz has spun, its a web and difficult for some to see through all the many facets and layers of it. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2257 "2013-07-16T04:45:14Z")
Juror B37. Already has a book deal. Apparently she has no problem getting into the heart and mind of a dead person. Sigh. > [@](#): > > “I think the roles changed. I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn’t have been there. But Trayvon decided that he wasn’t going to let him scare him … and I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him,” > She said she believed Zimmerman’s “heart was in the right place” the night he killed Martin, but that he didn’t use “good judgment” in confronting the Florida teen. > > “I think George Zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place, but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods and wanting to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he really should have done. But I think his heart was in the right place. It just went terribly wrong,” she said Florida - where using really bad judgment, having things go wrong and killing someone means never having to say sorry, if your heart is in the right place! But ultimately - and as expected - the jury decided the law gave them no choice: > [@](#): > > “There was a couple of them in there that wanted to find him guilty of something and after hours and hours and hours of deliberating over the law, and reading it over and over and over again, we decided there’s just no way, other place to go,” she said. Although one observer thinks that George was acquitted when the defense convinced the judge to not give the [jury instruction](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alafair-burke/george-zimmerman-jury-instructions_b_3596685.html) on the initial aggressor limitation to self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2258 "2013-07-16T04:58:39Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Although one observer thinks that George was acquitted when the defense convinced the judge to not give the [jury instruction](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alafair-burke/george-zimmerman-jury-instructions_b_3596685.html) on the initial aggressor limitation to self-defense. The observer is wrong. The only thing the “initial aggressor” limitation requires is for the person claiming self-defense to have no avenue of escape. Since the jury believed that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman hitting him, the “avenues of escape” thing is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2259 "2013-07-16T07:21:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The observer is wrong. The only thing the “initial aggressor” limitation requires is for the person claiming self-defense to have no avenue of escape. Since the jury believed that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman hitting him, the “avenues of escape” thing is moot. You guys kill me. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2260 "2013-07-16T08:26:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The observer is wrong. The only thing the “initial aggressor” limitation requires is for the person claiming self-defense to have no avenue of escape. Since the jury believed that Trayvon was sitting on top of Zimmerman hitting him, the “avenues of escape” thing is moot. Did you even read the article, or do you just pull shit out of your ass? > [@](#): > > Even Florida’s broad self-defense statutory scheme follows traditional self-defense limitations by [prohibiting “initial aggressors”](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html) from using force provoked by their own conduct. A defendant in Florida [cannot claim self-defense if he “initially provokes the use of force” against himself](http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2012/03/trayvon-martin-and-the-initial-aggressor-issue.html), unless he either withdraws from the conflict and conveys the withdrawal to the other party (the legal equivalent of “saying ‘uncle’”) or uses reasonable escape options to avoid death or great bodily harm (in other words, the initial aggressor has no right to stand his ground; he must retreat). In other words - if the jury believed that Zimmerman, by following Martin for a quarter of a mile, in his car then on foot, for over five minutes, essentially provoked any physical response from Martin, the jury could then conclude that Zimmerman can’t claim self defense. Jurur B37: > [@](#): > > I think George Zimmerman is a man whse heart was in the right place, but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods and **wanting to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he really should have done**. And this is coming from one of the jurors that started out thinking Zimmerman was not guilty. You’re telling me the jury couldn’t have gotten from there to ‘can’t claim self defense’ because of initial aggressor limitations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=112) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=114)