# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 123
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2441 "2013-07-17T16:57:18Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I cannot state with absolute certainty without doing a search, but I strongly believe that it was Magiver who argued that it was not. No doubt because that just adds to the incredible nature of his story, and Magiver just can’t stand that. Ok. It is unambiguously a right-handed inside-the-waistband holster. I guess in theory you could use it as a _left handed_ outside-the-waistband holster, but it would be really floppy and unsecure, and the pistol would be facing backwards in a cross-draw setup. > [@Stoid](#): > > But it does turn out that it was inside the waistband, on the right, towards the back, if Zimmy’s gestures tell us anything. Under his shirt and his jacket. Behind Martin’s knee. Where Martin saw it. In the dark. And Zimmerman saw him see it. And grabbed it first. > > It’s remarkable how it just becomes _more_ ridiculous, instead of less. Zimmerman says: “That’s when my jacket moved up, and I had my firearm on my right side hip and my jacket moved up and he saw it, I feel like he saw it, he looked at it and he said ‘You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker’ and he reached for it, like I felt his arm going down my side, and I grabbed it and I just grabbed my firearm and shot him. One time.” Say Martin didn’t really see the gun, he said “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker” as just a general thing to say during a beating, but Zimmerman felt his arm on that side for a moment and honestly believed that Martin had seen and would try to take his gun, since he was already hitting him and all. So, he drew it first and fired. Murder, or self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2442 "2013-07-17T16:57:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And Zimmerman saw him see it. And grabbed it first. Again, not only did Zimmerman see him see it. Trayvon announced that he saw the weapon “you’re gonna die tonight, MFer” prior to making a slow, weak move towards the weapon. This part of the story really ties up any and all loose ends Zimmerman may have been afraid about with his self defense claim, because it shows Trayvon was going to kill him. Trayvon, a kid who never did anything like this before (to anyones knowledge). A kid without an arrest record. A kid who never was in any serious trouble before. A kid who minutes earlier was walking home while having a conversation with a friend. Yep, Trayvon in that instant decided his first criminal activity was going to be murder of a stranger several feet from his house in front of a dozen witnesses. He was so sure of his killing abilities he brazenly said he would do it even before having the gun in his possession. He said it before it is likely he could have even seen the weapon. And then after all of those dramatic actions and an executable death threat he seemingly forgets about the gun and continued to bash Zimmerman’s head. TM Must have thought, “well shucks, Zimmerman’s one handed arm bar and gun grab was too cool for me. I’ll forget about the gun and start trying to kill this chubby man the old fashioned way again.” What a story! Wow, it is truly unbelievable! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2443 "2013-07-17T16:59:26Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > Yep, Trayvon in that instant decided his first criminal activity was going to be murder of a stranger several feet from his house in front of a dozen witnesses. If you were to learn of other criminal activities from Martin, would that change your analysis? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2444 "2013-07-17T17:01:13Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > Trayvon, a kid who never did anything like this before (to anyones knowledge). Trayvon, the kid who twitted to his friends bragging of how he made people bleed when fist-fighting? > [@](#): > > Yep, Trayvon in that instant decided his first criminal activity was going to be murder of a stranger several feet from his house in front of a dozen witnesses. He was so sure of his killing abilities he brazenly said he would do it even before having the gun in his possession. He said it before it is likely he could have even seen the weapon. You are under this misconception that Trayvon has to have attempted killing Zimmerman in order for Zimmerman’s self-defense claim to be valid. That is incorrect. You do realize that is incorrect, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2445 "2013-07-17T17:01:42Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Hard to get anything resembling a quality voice sample from the dead guy, one would think. Not when he makes a video on his own phone. This is what the sample was taken from. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2446 "2013-07-17T17:02:04Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Back up. > Physics that a small child would understand > Gunbarrel aimed dead center of chest, touching clothes, a few inches from flesh. Medical examiner’s testimony: gun wasn’t touching clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2447 "2013-07-17T17:05:38Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > What a story! Wow, it is truly unbelievable! What story you (i.e., Mr-Pookie) believe has just about zero effect on the real world. No one cares. Nothing changes based on whether you (i.e., Mr-Pookie) believe or don’t believe one story or another. The people who do matter (i.e., the jury) believed a story that included GZ having acted reasonably in self defense. That’s all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2448 "2013-07-17T17:05:48Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I didn’t realize you found English so challenging. Lol, seems like you are the one who finds English challenging. I made it clear that I am not interested in searching for evidence to support your position. That’s your job. I’m not sure what about this is hard to understand. > [@](#): > > Oh well. Oh well, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2449 "2013-07-17T17:09:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So does anyone have any kind of creative speculation to account for Zimmerman being, evidently, a moron who seems to think that bullets take a sharp right or left turn when they exit the chamber, missing the 160 pounds of flesh 2-4 inches directly in front of them? > > Anyone? I did previously, you never responded. I really think you should take a little time to read about extreme stress situations. People do illogical things (e.g. my friend who kept screaming at emergency responders to help her fiance who was very obviously dead). As I said, Blink by Gladwell is a great book and talks about the repercussions of how uninitiated people react in a situation like this one. There is a physiological response that happens during acute stress. Blood is drawn away from your outer layer of skin (causing you to bleed less from cuts, etc) and directed to your brain and other vital organs. An increased heart rate from the excess blood pumping through your body impairs cognitive function, sometimes to even do/comprehend the most basic things. As an example, emergency professionals often tell people to practice dialing 911 (with an unplugged phone, not actually calling). This is because people have “forgotten” the number during a high stress situation. This is also why schools, offices, public buildings are required hold fire drills. Despite people logically knowing that it’s best to exit a building in a calm orderly fashion they often panic and try to push, shove or climb their way out. There have even been stories of people “forgetting” where the exits are, even when clearly marked. Extra glucose is sent surging through your body giving you a sugar high in addition to the adrenaline. Both of these can inhibit short term memory conversion to long-term memory. Our brain is then forced to “fill in the gap” as best we can from what we do remember. And at the end of the day I’m willing to bet there was a moment of “I can’t believe I just shot someone, no… I must have missed him. God I hope I didn’t hit him,” that ran through his head. Or at least I hope there was. I don’t know. No one does. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2450 "2013-07-17T17:09:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > **Stoid** …I’ve differed pretty sharply from you in your interpretation of evidence in this case, and what inferences are reasonable or not. But I think this is the first time I’ve seen you be dishonest as to the literal content of a piece of evidence. I’m disillusioned, here. > > Your recaps of what Zimmerman said are inaccurate. > > **Stoid** Version: When Martin said “you got me”, George didn’t think he hit him > > What Zimmerman Actually Said: “After I shot him, he like sat up…and I didn’t think I hit him, because he sat up and he said, uh, ‘you got me, you got it, you got me’, something like that, so I thought he was just saying 'I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I’m giving up.” > **Stoid** Version: When Martin slumped over onto his face in the grass, George didn’t think he hit him. > > What Zimmerman Actually Said: “I don’t know if I pushed him off me or he fell off me.” Yes, if you have accurately quoted Zimmerman, then **Stoid** is wildly distorting his words to make him seem less credible. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2451 "2013-07-17T17:11:49Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What story you (i.e., Mr-Pookie) believe has just about zero effect on the real world. No one cares. Nothing changes based on whether you (i.e., Mr-Pookie) believe or don’t believe one story or another. > > The people who do matter (i.e., the jury) believed a story that included GZ having acted reasonably in self defense. That’s all that matters. You’re right Rand Rover. We all shouldn’t care anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2452 "2013-07-17T17:17:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Just against his clothes, which is of course an enormous distinction when we’re talking about whether the bullet went forward, left, right, up, or down. He struggles for the gun and manages to squeeze the trigger. He expects Martin to go down and he doesn’t. For a few brief seconds he questions whether or not he hit him. You yourself have claimed that Martin couldn’t do anything because of where the bullet went yet you’ve been shown that this is quite possible. Now you’re surprised that Zimmerman was surprised. Color me surprised at your surprise. > [@Stoid](#): > > Are _YOU_ arguing that Martin was incapacitated, could not speak, could not move his hands, therefore Zimmerman had no way to figure out whether his shot found it’s mark? If not, what are you trying to convey with the above? No, you’re arguing that YOU expected that outcome but don’t accept that Zimmerman reacted the same and therefore didn’t know if he actually hit him. That was what I was trying to convey. > [@Stoid](#): > > Realize what? You really need to be more precise. How long did it take GZ to realize that he DID hit him? If that’s the question, so far it appears that he still did not know that he hit him by the time the police arrived, given his urgent request of the neighbor to “help restrain” the dead/almost dead guy underneath him, and the police arriving seconds later, at which point he rose from the body. Still haven’t found the part where he says he finally figured it out, but he managed to stay in the dark from shot-to-police, which is wholly unbelievable unless he’s a moron, and as previously noted, we have evidence which would indicate that he is in no way a moron. It was a simple question. when do you think Zimmerman realized Martin was struck by a bullet? 1 second? 5 seconds? 2 days? take a guess. > [@Stoid](#): > > I am sincere when I say that at this point, I’m pretty sure that if I produced a video with night vision and enhanced audio showing you that Zimmerman hunted him down and blew him away you wouldn’t consider it proof. Because nothing is proof to someone who can make up, then accept, just about anything that looks like it might serve to cover Zimmerman’s gaping holes. You don’t want to see the holes, so you don’t. I accept that. It would be unhealthy for me not to, I’d go mad. You have no capacity to reason at all. You think everything he says is a lie and then go on to suggest what might have happened and then declare him guilty of that. You have yet to PROVE a single lie. You have a belief system that rivals that of many religions but like those religions you can’t prove anything. Based on the evidence at hand there is nothing that contradicts his account of what happened. All the evidence either backs up what he says or is neutral. You can’t except this. It’s not a function of knowing if it could happen a different way, it’s a function of the evidence available set against his testimony. How you don’t understand this is so believable at this point it’s beyond reason. If there were evidence that proved a contradiction to his claim of self defense he would be sitting in jail right now. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2453 "2013-07-17T17:25:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Yes, if you have accurately quoted Zimmerman, then **Stoid** is wildly distorting his words to make him seem less credible. In an alternate universe where words mean something radically different…:rolleyes: Anyone care to tell me what the meaningful distinction is supposed to be between Zim pushing him off or him falling? What difference are you perceiving between Martin being so weak and limp and unresisting (like someone who just got shot!) he can be easily shoved off vs. being so weak and limp that he simply falls (like someone who just got shot)? The difference between “you got me” and “you got me or you got it”? ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2454 "2013-07-17T17:26:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Trayvon, the kid who twitted to his friends bragging of how he made people bleed when fist-fighting? Yes, Trayvon was in fist fights with people. He was a youngster. That is a pretty big jump to become a murderer. > [@](#): > > You are under this misconception that Trayvon has to have attempted killing Zimmerman in order for Zimmerman’s self-defense claim to be valid. That is incorrect. You do realize that is incorrect, right? I don’t disagree with you. It matters because I believe this story is a lie made up because Zimmerman didn’t think what he did was justified by self defense law in the heat of the moment. I do realize what he thought didn’t matter so much as what actually happened. If he made up this part of the story then what other parts of the story were fabricated to put his actions in a legitimate light? How much of his account is what happened? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2455 "2013-07-17T17:30:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, you’re arguing that YOU expected that outcome but don’t accept that Zimmerman reacted the same and therefore didn’t know if he actually hit him. That was what I was trying to convey. Still not following. > [@](#): > > It was a simple question. when do you think Zimmerman realized Martin was struck by a bullet? 1 second? 5 seconds? 2 days? take a guess. When do _I_ think? _I_ think he knew instantly. What he claims is still a question mark, but it wasn’t any time before the cops showed up. > [@](#): > > You have yet to PROVE a single lie. As I said, nothing is or ever could be proof to you. I understand that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2456 "2013-07-17T17:34:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok. It is unambiguously a right-handed inside-the-waistband holster. I guess in theory you could use it as a _left handed_ outside-the-waistband holster, but it would be really floppy and unsecure, and the pistol would be facing backwards in a cross-draw setup. > > Zimmerman says: > > “That’s when my jacket moved up, and I had my firearm on my right side hip and my jacket moved up and he saw it, I feel like he saw it, he looked at it and he said ‘You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker’ and he reached for it, like I felt his arm going down my side, and I grabbed it and I just grabbed my firearm and shot him. One time.” > > Say Martin didn’t really see the gun, he said “You’re gonna die tonight motherfucker” as just a general thing to say during a beating, but Zimmerman felt his arm on that side for a moment and honestly believed that Martin had seen and would try to take his gun, since he was already hitting him and all. So, he drew it first and fired. > > Murder, or self-defense? Which part are you asking me to believe? Because I don’t believe Martin said that. I don’t believe the gun was holstered at that point to begin with, so I don’t believe the whole reveal-grab story. I don’t believe Zimmerman had a sincere fear for his life and health. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2457 "2013-07-17T17:36:42Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > I don’t disagree with you. > > It matters because I believe this story is a lie made up because Zimmerman didn’t think what he did was justified by self defense law in the heat of the moment. > > I do realize what he thought didn’t matter so much as what actually happened. If he made up this part of the story then what other parts of the story were fabricated to put his actions in a legitimate light? How much of his account is what happened? The six members of the jury, after seeing all the evidence provided to them by the prosecution and by the defense, decided that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have felt fear of death or great bodily harm (and yes, I know they just return guilty or non-guilty, but without self-defense angle they had to find guilty of manslaughter, so it is pretty clear that they decided it based on self-defense). You may disbelieve it. But that’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2458 "2013-07-17T17:39:27Z")
Stoid, I and the others arguing the evidence of the case would just as easily toss Zimmerman under the bus if the evidence backed that up. It doesn’t. I DON’T CARE about Zimmerman. His first name isn’t Bob and he’s not my uncle. He’s the poster child of why concealed guns aren’t useful for protection. It nearly got him killed. Had Martin approached me for the 2nd time I’d already have a knife in my hand and I wouldn’t take my eyes off him for any reason. I learned that the hard way. Zimmerman should have learned that working as a bouncer. The other thing he shouldn’t have done is meet Martin’s raised voice with his own. Clearly a kid the size of of Martin (who confronted him already at the car) is a potential problem. But regardless of who’s narrative you believe it was a very short exchange. Martin did not give Zimmerman any verbal wiggle room. So this brings us back to where the fight started. The evidence shows Martin started the verbal confrontation and there is nothing to suggest he was dragged there from his house. So Martin is the person responsible for the confrontation and assault. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2459 "2013-07-17T17:45:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He struggles for the gun and manages to squeeze the trigger. He expects Martin to go down and he doesn’t. For a few brief seconds he questions whether or not he hit him. You yourself have claimed that Martin couldn’t do anything because of where the bullet went yet you’ve been shown that this is quite possible. Now you’re surprised that Zimmerman was surprised. Color me surprised at your surprise. He didn’t struggle for the gun, according to Zimmerman. Zimmerman said in one of this many accounts that Trayvon continued to bash his brains in. > [@](#): > > It was a simple question. when do you think Zimmerman realized Martin was struck by a bullet? 1 second? 5 seconds? 2 days? take a guess. The first testimony that he knew was when he asked the neighbor to tell his wife he shot somebody. > [@](#): > > Based on the evidence at hand there is nothing that contradicts his account of what happened. All the evidence either backs up what he says or is neutral. You can’t except this. Lots of evidence contradicts GZs account. None of it, on it’s own, is a smoking gun to disallow his powerful claim of self defense. Proving he lied is a tall order since nobody saw what happened. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2460 "2013-07-17T17:49:54Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > [link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VakGZgJxTi4) > > Check out the 10 minute mark. He grabs his back side to indicate where his weapon was located. Lol, I watched the video at the mark you provided. Here’s what he ACTUALLY said: > [@](#): > > . . . that’s when my jacket moved up and I had my firearm on my right side hip Did you seriously not expect me to check? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=122) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=124)