# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 128
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2541 "2013-07-18T01:52:38Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yeah, the only thing he seems definite about is the stuff that is the least believable: the head bashing and smothering. Yeah, I’m not sidetracking into that. This shooting stuff is my last hurrah on Zimmerman. > [@Stoid](#): > > Then I guess Zimmy’s been hanging at the gun range plenty! Or, it was an amazingly lucky shot. (Or unlucky, really, as Zimmerman just needed to stop Martin’s attack, not kill him. And of course, it was unlucky for Martin). > [@Stoid](#): > > Do try to remember what you said: > You wanted me to agree with your scenario “that must mean you didn’t hit them” - doesn’t mean that to me. I think anything can happen when a person is shot, there’s no particular rule about falling, screaming, etc. Everyone gets shot in the heart in their own special way. Zimmerman’s description of Martin’s behavior would qualify as a reaction to being shot. Ahem: “…or whatever you were expecting”. Not you as in Stoid, you as in the shooter. If you, Stoid, have no preconceived ideas of what to expect when someone is shot, bully for you. That’s not true of people who’ve seen shootings on TV or in movies but never in real life. It’s not even true of you, since you believe Martin couldn’t be “alert” or “normal” seconds after being shot. > [@Stoid](#): > > Where did I say anything about what _should_ happen? I didn’t. You said "Especially if what they DO do is sit up, clutch their chest and say “you got me”. That doesn’t indicate that sitting up is indicative of being shot? > [@Stoid](#): > > I don’t know how you shoot “right at” someone. If I shot someone the way Zimmerman describes shooting Martin, and they fail to react in any respect, continuing to try and smother me, punch me, etc. I’m amazed and think maybe they are on some kind of drug that makes them have the weirdly superhuman ability to keep going in spite of massive injuries that would flatten anyone else. Angel dust had that rep when I was a young’un. So a miss would never cross your mind no matter what. That sounds like a personal matter, that you shouldn’t try to apply to other people. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2542 "2013-07-18T01:54:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s never been “you got me PLUS”, it’s been either “you got me”, or “you got it”, or “something like that”. You only wrote it as “you got me”, ignoring Zimmerman’s confusion on that paid, and also only wrote that Martin fell off of Martin, ignoring that he said he may have shoved him off.While that could be an innocent error, it’s notable that both elements you chose to highlight are the ones that made Zimmerman’s claim more doubtful: “you got me” and Martin falling over. Yeah. Because that was the _point_. (and the falling/pushing, again…same level of doubt) Whether he was crystal clear or confused doesn’t _change_ _anything_. He always includes the “you got me” as a possibility, while simultaneously claiming that he didn’t know he hit him. It’s lame. No consideration of his degree of certainty required. Because also remember these are the gravy issues. > [@](#): > > > [@Stoid](#): > > > > vs. the whole control Martin, take aim, fire point blank at the guy filling up the space in front of you part, which is “You are a fucking _liar_, man, because there’s _no way_ on earth you didn’t know you hit him after aiming your gun at his chest and pulling the trigger, who the hell do you think you’re talking to? Houseplants?” > > And that’s just arrogance on your part. There’s no other word for it. Alright, I have no issue with that. But should I take that to mean that you don’t think there are scenarios which are so obscenely unlikely that you would find it insulting if someone tried to convince you they were true? Is it your position that all possibilities should be respected equally in the absence of “disproof”, no matter how far outside the realm of normal human experience they may range? You never think it’s ever legitimate to just call “Bullshit” on someone’s bullshit? Or is it always arrogance? Or is it only arrogance in this instance because of something you haven’t explained? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2543 "2013-07-18T02:05:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yeah. Because that was the _point_. (and the falling/pushing, again…same level of doubt) > Whether he was crystal clear or confused doesn’t _change_ _anything_. He always includes the “you got me” as a possibility, while simultaneously claiming that he didn’t know he hit him. It’s lame. No consideration of his degree of certainty required. Because also remember these are the gravy issues. Are you looking to score points, or get at the truth? When you ignore the possibilities that don’t support your pet theory, it points to the former. > [@Stoid](#): > > Alright, I have no issue with that. But should I take that to mean that you don’t think there are scenarios which are so obscenely unlikely that you would find it insulting if someone tried to convince you they were true? Sure there are. > [@Stoid](#): > > Is it your position that all possibilities should be respected equally in the absence of “disproof”, no matter how far outside the realm of normal human experience they may range? There’s the rub: we aren’t taking about normal human experience, but rather extraordinary, rare events. > [@Stoid](#): > > You never think it’s ever legitimate to just call “Bullshit” on someone’s bullshit? Or is it always arrogance? Or is it only arrogance in this instance because of something you haven’t explained? It’s arrogance when you substitute your gut feelings for knowledge, and treat it like evidence instead of just your gut feeling. You don’t know how people react to being shot in the heart, which is likely variable anyway. You don’t know how people react to shooting people. You don’t know how inaccurate hipshooting is, thus greatly reducing one’s expectation of hitting their target. I’ve missed plenty of shots when my sights were perfectly on target, but I’ve missed probably 98% of shots where I wasn’t using the sights at all. And, you don’t know (or refuse to accept) that people under stress act irrationally. The Jackie Kennedy example used earlier is a good one: she had to have known that getting the piece of her husband’s skull was needless, right? No one could have a rifle bullet slam into their husband’s head and then think they needed to grab all the pieces. All you have is a gut feeling that if you shoot at someone from close range, and the person sat up and said something like “you got me” or “you got it”, no honest person anywhere could say that they didn’t instantly know that their bullet had struck home. That feeling is based on no facts and no experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2544 "2013-07-18T02:56:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No, YOU don’t get to do THAT…we have no evidence OF TRAUMA. His affect was calm, controlled, focused. _ **Not** _ traumatized. You’re not understanding my issue. You made a statement: We have evidence that x is not true. You did NOT say: There is no evidence that x is true. Do you know the difference between the two? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2545 "2013-07-18T04:31:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Her reason, whatever it was, was irrational. > > So was Zimmerman’s. I think it likely that Martin used the can of fruit drink on Zimmerman’s nose for the first blow. it would account for the cut and severity of the wound from a hook. Otherwise a typical frontal strike would be more linear in the swelling without a cut. I don’t think it likely he used it while on top of Zimmerman or there would be more cuts plus the can would make a discernible noise. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2546 "2013-07-18T06:26:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think it likely that Martin used the can of fruit drink on Zimmerman’s nose for the first blow. it would account for the cut and severity of the wound from a hook. Otherwise a typical frontal strike would be more linear in the swelling without a cut. I don’t think it likely he used it while on top of Zimmerman or there would be more cuts plus the can would make a discernible noise. Is this satire? There’s no dents to the can in the pictures from the scene. Try hitting a full can of anything against a surface; it will explode. Aluminum drink cans are pressurized. I assume this is some sort of attempt to turn around the fact that Martin was carrying some very kid-like junk food by pretending it was actually a weapon, but it doesn’t square with the physical evidence in addition to being ludicrous on its face. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2547 "2013-07-18T06:43:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > All you have is a gut feeling that if you shoot at someone from close range, and the person sat up and said something like “you got me” or “you got it”, no honest person anywhere could say that they didn’t instantly know that their bullet had struck home. That feeling is based on no facts and no experiences. And you clearly have not been actually reading what I’ve said, since this is, to put it mildly, not an accurate representation of my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2548 "2013-07-18T07:21:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And you clearly have not been actually reading what I’ve said, since this is, to put it mildly, not an accurate representation of my argument. It’s precisely accurate. All your arguments ignore the facts in favour of your feelings and prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2549 "2013-07-18T08:28:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think it likely that Martin used the can of fruit drink on Zimmerman’s nose for the first blow. it would account for the cut and severity of the wound from a hook. Otherwise a typical frontal strike would be more linear in the swelling without a cut. I don’t think it likely he used it while on top of Zimmerman or there would be more cuts plus the can would make a discernible noise. Ahahahaha - man, we have all been completely taken for a ride. What a farce! For a gadzillion posts on the main thread Magiver was pulling our collective leg! Magiver thinks ‘it’s likely’ that Martin used the can? The can that was found inside the center pocket of Martin’s hoodie, in pristine condition? That’s the can that Magiver thinks it ‘likely’ that Martin used to bash into Zimmerman’s face? We’ll ignore how ridiculous that is when you remember the pristine condition of \*Zimmerman’s \*face. Even more ridiculous is that after bashing GZ’s head with the can, Martin - instead of following up his devestating sucker-punch attack (remembering, of course, that Martin snuck up behind George but ruined any element of surprise by talking), he \*calmly puts the can into his sweatshirt pocket \*and then starts wrestling with George for 30 feet in the complete opposite direction George would have stumbled in had he been punched in the face from a left-handed person. Since there’s no way - none, zero, zilch, not even in some other universe - where this is even remotely close to being somethign similiar to the idea of ‘likely’ I conclude that Magiver wasn’t really engaging in any real debate, he was just yanking our collective chain for the past year. Good one! Joke was on us I guess! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2550 "2013-07-18T09:09:43Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No, I have always been arguing exactly the same thing: that he knew from the second he squeezed the trigger that the bullet hit Martin, and on top of the point blank shot itself, the series of things he described afterwards just added to that already -complet knowledge, and kinda proved in themselves how ridiculous his claim was. Stop weaseling. Here’s what you said before: > [@](#): > > In an alternate universe where words mean something radically different… Anyone care to tell me what the meaningful distinction is supposed to be between . . . “you got me” and “you got me or you got it”? You were wrong and I challenge you to admit it rather than simply change the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2551 "2013-07-18T09:17:37Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Stop weaseling. > > Here’s what you said before: > > You were wrong and I challenge you to admit it rather than simply change the subject. If i had a clue what you meant. I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2552 "2013-07-18T09:21:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s precisely accurate. All your arguments ignore the facts in favour of your feelings and prejudices. Of course. It is your world, after all, you decide what happens, what’s real or true, what matters, who everyone is, how they feel and think… It’s all yours to design however you desire. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2553 "2013-07-18T09:31:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Of course. It is your world, after all, you decide what happens, what’s real or true, what matters, who everyone is, how they feel and think… It’s all yours to design however you desire. Enjoy. You’re still wrong. I don’t decide, I observe. That’s why, for example, I changed my mind about this case when the evidence emerged, and showed my original thoughts were wrong. You on the other hand have stuck with the idea that, because some of Zimmerman’s statements strike you as implausible, he is a liar, and because he’s a liar he must be a murderer. You cling to that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are wrong factually, wrong legally, and wrong logically. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2554 "2013-07-18T09:59:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re still wrong. I don’t decide, I observe. That’s why, for example, I changed my mind about this case when the evidence emerged, and showed my original thoughts were wrong. You on the other hand have stuck with the idea that, because some of Zimmerman’s statements strike you as implausible, he is a liar, and because he’s a liar he must be a murderer. You cling to that belief in the face of overwhelming evidence that you are wrong factually, wrong legally, and wrong logically. I know thats true for you, Steophan…and I know better than to argue with your world…no point. We would have to be dwelling in the same eorld, and we clearly are not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2555 "2013-07-18T11:12:20Z")
Truth doesn’t actually vary from person to person, you know. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2556 "2013-07-18T11:23:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > If i had a clue what you meant. I don’t. Lol, I didn’t realize you found English so challenging. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2557 "2013-07-18T11:58:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And you clearly have not been actually reading what I’ve said, since this is, to put it mildly, not an accurate representation of my argument. Where did I get you wrong? Was “close range” too general? Feel free to substitute “extremely close range”. If it’s “no honest person anywhere”, and you mean that only George Zimmerman would be a liar to say such things, I encourage you to examine that concept closely, vs. your claims to be weighing evidence without passion or prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2558 "2013-07-18T12:43:36Z")
Perhaps I shouldn’t participate in these threads – I spend my hours reading about Western European archaeology, history of applied math, etc. and know little about current American affairs beyond the headlines. For example, only now did I stumble upon a year-old quote by GZ. From [Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/19/zimmerman-says-sorry-trayvon-martin-family-had-to-bury-their-child-family-calls/): [QUOTE=George Zimmerman] “[No regrets about TM’s death … no regrets about leaving the car to follow] … I feel that it was all God’s plan, and for me to second guess it or judge it … [no]” [/QUOTE] I’m curious how GZ’s apologists at the SDMB reacted to this. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2559 "2013-07-18T12:51:54Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The other evidence is the fact that George Zimmerman has been reported to be a relatively intelligent human being, getting A’s in his classes, being among the best students. Snipped for brevity. I cannot let this stand: Zimmerman’s college transcripts were released, and he was not a good student. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/2560 "2013-07-18T13:05:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Perhaps I shouldn’t participate in these threads – I spend my hours reading about Western European archaeology, history of applied math, etc. and know little about current American affairs beyond the headlines. > > For example, only now did I stumble upon a year-old quote by GZ. From [Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/19/zimmerman-says-sorry-trayvon-martin-family-had-to-bury-their-child-family-calls/): First, you’re mischaracterizing what he said in your brackets. He didn’t say what you attribute to him. He never said “no regrets about TM’s death”, in fact he said directly the opposite. Second, here is what you didn’t quote from his interview: First I’d like to readdress your question when you asked if I would have done anything differently. When you asked that I thought you were referring to if I would not have talked to the police, if I would have maybe got an attorney, if I wouldn’t have taken the CVSA, and that I stand by. I would not have done anything differently. But I do wish that there was something, anything, I could have done that wouldn’t have put me in a position where I had to take his life. And I do want to tell everyone: my wife,my family, my parents, my grandmother, the Martins, the City of Sanford, and America, that I’m sorry that this happened. I hate to think that because of this incident, because of my actions, it’s polarized and divided America, and I’m truly sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=127) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=129)