# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/281 "2013-06-28T02:16:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > When Rachel said she told Martin to run because Zimmerman could be a rapist, the ears of that all-female jury (with 5 out of 6 mothers) should have perked up. You mean when Rachel told the jury how Martin racially and otherwise profiled Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/282 "2013-06-28T03:19:17Z")
So far none of the neighbor witnesses have added much to the case that we didn’t already know from the 911 tape. The screams on that tape were certainly loud enough for all the neighbors to hear. But, it was so dark that none of them saw much of anything until it was over. I’m glad that we’re finally getting the witnesses that went outside after the shooting. At least they can testify about his state of mind. We just don’t know who escalated the situation. We know that Trayvon saw George watching him. George’s call mentions that and Trayon’s phone friend confirms that he saw George watching him. George claims Trayvon sucker punched him. Without any witnesses there’s no way of knowing if that’s true or not. I’m still waiting to hear more about George’s wet jacket and grass stains. That’s more proof that he was on the bottom. I guess the defense will raise that issue later. The defense’s case should be really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/283 "2013-06-28T05:12:53Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Something else occurred to me. She was nervous and who knows how much she was lying, I don’t. But, maybe that all affected her ability to communicate well; however, I think there was another factor here… > > It is not that hard for most blacks to ‘code switch’. But a young nervous girl may have a hard time in this situation because the questioner wants her to retell exactly what was said between her and Trayvon. That is going to be a challenge for the poor girl, because she doesn’t really feel confident speaking the exact way some black people speak to each other when we are alone. The slang can get thick as hell, really, and it is going to be difficult for a young scared girl to really relate it to a room full of people who she thinks won’t understand. So she is trying to on the fly translate some of how they were talking, mumbling in her effort to translate some of the heavier black dialect and slang so that her audience will understand. I am having a hard time myself, trying to explain this. > > ETA: It struck me hardest when she had to relay things like ‘creepy ass cracka’. And especially when she said, “He said that nigga is following me” or whatever. She struggled with that so much, because she knew that white people don’t really know that we call whites nigga too, the same way we call each other nigga. She knew it would seem weird and the defense would ask her to repeat it, and she was just bracing for all of that, and feeling overwhelmed and nervous about it all. Just my take on it, anyway. Yes, I know what you mean, and I agree. When I was teaching in Harlem, I had some students who would refuse to participate in class if there were “too many white people” in the room. They could code switch, but they didn’t like to do it, and they only felt comfortable speaking around other black people. I was commuting from Brooklyn at the time, and they couldn’t understand why I would travel that far. A lot of them had never been south of 42nd Street. I was surprised that anyone living in NYC could remain that insular for that long, but there it was. Rachel is probably still that insular; she hasn’t left home or even held a job yet. I was watching the cable news shows after her testimony, and while everyone mentioned her having difficulty communicating for one reason or another, no one brought this up as a possibility, not even the many black commentators, who you know would know about this. Is it supposed to be a secret? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/284 "2013-06-28T05:24:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > T No one has yet identified seeing Martin leaning on top of Zimmerman, _ **smothering** _, or punching him. That’s my favorite. I want them to play the screams so everyone can hear Zimmerman being “smothered”. :rolleyes: He said in his statement he couldn’t breath, but yet he could scream… he’s quite a remarkable fella, that Zim. Considering his astonishing ability to be losing consciousness, unable to breath, yet control Martin’s arms while he reached around to get his gun out…I mean, this guy is a candidate for some kind of comic book superhero with abilities like his. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/285 "2013-06-28T05:31:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You mean when Rachel told the jury how Martin racially and otherwise profiled Zimmerman? Was he racially profiling Zimmerman when he called him a “nigga”? Did that cancel out also calling him a “cracker”? Do you consider it profiling to refer to someone who is actively stalking you as “creepy”? Anyway, aren’t you one of the people who thinks this witness had no credibility? Why are you putting so much emphasis on this part of her testimony, but discounting the rest? Do you know what confirmation bias is? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/286 "2013-06-28T05:39:40Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It’s a shame George’s parents were kicked out of court. All because his dad is on the witness list. I can’t imagine why. He was home in another city when the shooting occurred. The father had no direct involvement in the case until afterward. I believe Ma and Pa Zimmerman are listed as prosecution witnesses. I have no idea what evidence they would provide the prosecution’s case. Maybe it was just a way for the prosecution to keep the Zimmerman’s out of court and out of sight of the jury? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/287 "2013-06-28T05:48:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > so to recap, you think he’s making up a deliberate story over the phone, while it’s happening so that he can shoot Martin? What the hell are you smoking? The deliberate lie is clear on the video-taped statement at the station, and in the the video walkthrough the next day, when he clearly and repeatedly says a) dispatch asked him for an address while he was in his truck, and b) he decided to get out of the truck and look for a street sign by c) walking through the cut-through. But this exchange happens looooong after he’s out of the truck. > [@](#): > > \*\*911 dispatcher: \*\*Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21] > > **Zimmerman:** Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25] > [@Magiver](#): > > If he doesn’t remember the name of the street then the address is meaningless. His truck becomes the address for the police to respond to. The dispatcher asks him if he wants to meet them by his truck and he says yes and to call him when they get there. It’s completely irrelevant, because the idea that he got out of the truck to ‘find a street sign’ is a complete and utter lie, but you do know that NEN does have, like, google maps or stuff? > [@](#): > > He gave the dispatcher directions to his truck as he’s walking to the other street. He agrees to meet at the truck and asks the police to call when they arrive :rolleyes: Actually, he agreed to meet at -the mailboxes-, not his truck. Even more evidence that a street sign or address on the other side of the cut through was meaningless for directing cops to the mailboxes. Completely different area, and they’d already established the address. Secondly, how the hell is there going to be a street sign on the other side of the cut-through? Did he think the cut-through magically turned into an intersection on the other side? Secondly, how the hell is a street sign or address on the _other_ side of the cut through useful for directing the cops to his truck, which is parked somewhere completely different? After giving the cops directions to his truck from the main entrance, do you think he expected the cops to drive to the other side of the cut-through, get out, then walk back through the cut-through to Zimmerman’s truck? On foot? Finally - in the NEN call, after first agreeing to meet at the mailboxes, he clearly and obviously changes his mind: "Actually, could you have them call me and _I’ll tell them where I’m at?_ ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/288 "2013-06-28T05:55:38Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > That’s my favorite. I want them to play the screams so everyone can hear Zimmerman being “smothered”. :rolleyes: He said in his statement he couldn’t breath, but yet he could scream… I wish they could be made to reenact that; have the defense demonstrate how it’s possible to be smothered, and have your head being slammed against concrete, and still be able to scream like we hear on that tape. And then explain why you stopped screaming, suddenly and completely, precisely when the bullet hit someone else’s heart - a hit you claimed to not know about at the time. Why did you stop screaming right then, when - as you claimed - you weren’t sure if you were still in danger or not? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/289 "2013-06-28T06:01:27Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Yes, I know what you mean, and I agree. When I was teaching in Harlem, I had some students who would refuse to participate in class if there were “too many white people” in the room. They could code switch, but they didn’t like to do it, and they only felt comfortable speaking around other black people. I was commuting from Brooklyn at the time, and they couldn’t understand why I would travel that far. A lot of them had never been south of 42nd Street. I was surprised that anyone living in NYC could remain that insular for that long, but there it was. Rachel is probably still that insular; she hasn’t left home or even held a job yet. > > I was watching the cable news shows after her testimony, and while everyone mentioned her having difficulty communicating for one reason or another, no one brought this up as a possibility, not even the many black commentators, who you know would know about this. Is it supposed to be a secret? Nooo. You are missing my point. I don’t doubt she can ‘code switch’. I can’t understand why your kids in the class wouldn’t just speak their normal black dialect with white kids in the class. I can’t relate to that. My point was that simple code switching wasn’t enough in this case. She needed to say, VERBATIM exactly what her and Trayvon spoke about. That is hard to do. If I were to tell you how I speak with my girls sometimes, when we get drunk and silly…if I had to relay that to you in a solemn and formal setting, that would be hard for even me, let alone a scared, hurt, overwhelmed and maybe lying or fudging things too, teenager. The slang can get downright IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE SAYING. Try listening to some Ghostface Killa hip hop. It is in another language. Dee Dee understood that the court wanted her to tell them exactly what Trayvon and her was saying, but she understood it would be Greek to them. She was trying to insta-translate, and she just didn’t have the ability to do that. That’s my humble theory. If it were me, I could have made it work, but I am nearly 40 and have decades experience in code-switching, as well as tons of confidence that comes from age and experience. She didn’t have the same advantages. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/290 "2013-06-28T07:12:04Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Nooo. You are missing my point. I don’t doubt she can ‘code switch’. I can’t understand why your kids in the class wouldn’t just speak their normal black dialect with white kids in the class. I can’t relate to that. > > My point was that simple code switching wasn’t enough in this case. She needed to say, VERBATIM exactly what her and Trayvon spoke about. That is hard to do. If I were to tell you how I speak with my girls sometimes, when we get drunk and silly…if I had to relay that to you in a solemn and formal setting, that would be hard for even me, let alone a scared, hurt, overwhelmed and maybe lying or fudging things too, teenager. > > The slang can get downright IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE SAYING. Try listening to some Ghostface Killa hip hop. It is in another language. Dee Dee understood that the court wanted her to tell them exactly what Trayvon and her was saying, but she understood it would be Greek to them. She was trying to insta-translate, and she just didn’t have the ability to do that. That’s my humble theory. If it were me, I could have made it work, but I am nearly 40 and have decades experience in code-switching, as well as tons of confidence that comes from age and experience. She didn’t have the same advantages. I actually did get what you were saying; maybe my example was a little off point (my kids had a lot of issues, it was a transfer school), apart from Rachel being as young and inexperienced as my students. I understand that it would be difficult for Rachel to relate or translate a verbatim slang conversation; what I don’t understand is why the prosecution, or the media commentators, didn’t touch on it as a legitimate reason for her difficulty. The prosecutor brought up that she spoke three languages, which to me just confused the issue, and Rachel herself told West that she spoke and understood English very well. Nothing was said about using slang or vernacular in her conversations with Trayvon, which I thought would have been a helpful adjunct to her testimony. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/291 "2013-06-28T10:31:21Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > So far none of the neighbor witnesses have added much to the case that we didn’t already know from the 911 tape. I disagree. Even though we’ve had their statements for a while, their live testimony is bringing out points that clearly contradict the line of bull Zimmerman has tried to feed the masses. The teacher has been the strongest eye witness so far, IMO. In the early days, people discounted what she said because of Serino’s underhandedness and her emotional state on the 911 call. But she turned in a devastating performance. The jury may discount Rachel and some of the other browner witnesses, but they’ll have a hard time ignoring her. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/292 "2013-06-28T13:13:30Z")
> [@camille](#): > > The prosecutor brought up that she spoke three languages, which to me just confused the issue, and Rachel herself told West that she spoke and understood English very well. Rachel clearly understood English well enough - the whole point - and something I thought the State really failed to get across - was that other people not familiar with how she spoke had a hard time understanding her. That was - very clear - both from the recording of her original interview, and (repeatedly) in the court room the last two days. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/293 "2013-06-28T13:29:20Z")
There’s really nothing to argue about anymore. Yesterday DD admitted that Trayvon was LITERALLY at his father’s house minutes before the confrontation. Thus Trayvon had to have retturned to the T to confront Zimmerman. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/294 "2013-06-28T13:46:12Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Nooo. You are missing my point. I don’t doubt she can ‘code switch’. I can’t understand why your kids in the class wouldn’t just speak their normal black dialect with white kids in the class. I can’t relate to that. > > My point was that simple code switching wasn’t enough in this case. She needed to say, VERBATIM exactly what her and Trayvon spoke about. That is hard to do. If I were to tell you how I speak with my girls sometimes, when we get drunk and silly…if I had to relay that to you in a solemn and formal setting, that would be hard for even me, let alone a scared, hurt, overwhelmed and maybe lying or fudging things too, teenager. > > The slang can get downright IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE SAYING. Try listening to some Ghostface Killa hip hop. It is in another language. Dee Dee understood that the court wanted her to tell them exactly what Trayvon and her was saying, but she understood it would be Greek to them. She was trying to insta-translate, and she just didn’t have the ability to do that. That’s my humble theory. If it were me, I could have made it work, but I am nearly 40 and have decades experience in code-switching, as well as tons of confidence that comes from age and experience. She didn’t have the same advantages. Unless she was totally uncooperative before the trial the prosecutor should have worked extensively on her testimony. “Tell me exactly what was said on the phone.” “Ok for old people like me can you explain that to me?” There was no need for her to translate herself and if she was having difficulty with expressing herself it should have been dealt with ahead of time. Or maybe it was and this was the best they could get after a lot of work. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/295 "2013-06-28T14:06:36Z")
John Goode just testified that the darker skinned guy was straddling and raining down blows on the lighter skinned guy. No case. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/296 "2013-06-28T14:10:51Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Rachel clearly understood English well enough - the whole point - and something I thought the State really failed to get across - was that other people not familiar with how she spoke had a hard time understanding her. That was - very clear - both from the recording of her original interview, and (repeatedly) in the court room the last two days. And we shouldn’t assume that this isn’t lost on the jury either. The “gotcha ya” game that West played with her yesterday might have been compelling if he was dueling against a Rhodes scholar with perfect diction and adult maturity. But his opponent was a 19 year-old girl who very well might have a learning disability (she can’t read cursive and is old for being a HS senior) who also has a funny way of speaking. He tripped her up on a few things, but to do so, he had to take comments of hers completely out of context and blow them out of proportion. And he did this over the course of five hours. If Rachel was a house of cards credibility-wise, it should have taken them less than 30 minutes for them to have toppled her. I know I’m biased towards the prosecution, but for real, to think the defense accomplished anything with Rachel except convince the jury that West is an obnoxious bore strikes me as wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/297 "2013-06-28T14:36:49Z")
Good is a solid witness. He doesn’t let the lawyers trip up his testimony. He even provides details like the fight started on the grass and moved to the sidewalk. The screams were coming from the guy on the bottom. That was an old school ass whooping. There was no reason for the guy swinging his fists to scream help. The guy getting beat up is obviously the one screaming. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/298 "2013-06-28T15:19:19Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > John Goode just testified that the darker skinned guy was straddling and raining down blows on the lighter skinned guy. No case. Actually, he didn’t, but txs for playing. You going to come up with a cite for George pushing the buttons on his phone at the start to the altercation, or would you like to retract your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/299 "2013-06-28T15:23:23Z")
Lots of reasonable doubt here. State has yet to put on a witness that dispells any reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/300 "2013-06-28T15:27:11Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Actually, he didn’t, but txs for playing. Yes he did. > [@](#): > > Good was later asked if he now believes Trayvon was on the top and Zimmerman on the bottom: “Correct… that’s what it looked like,” he said. > > Good said it appeared the person on top was “straddling” the other person, and that it looked like there were “punches being thrown” and someone called for help. From [here](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-day-15-20130628,0,7092519.story). Why do you disbelieve him? Or, if you believe him, why do you think he’s mistaken, when his testimony matches the physical evidence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=16)