# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/701 "2013-07-03T07:13:05Z")
Stood appears to have successfully shown that benefit of the doubt attaches to criminal defendants through the entire trial, and is a lower standard than beyond reasonable doubt. Which is what we all told her… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/702 "2013-07-03T07:16:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Stood appears to have successfully shown that benefit of the doubt attaches to criminal defendants through the entire trial, and is a lower standard than beyond reasonable doubt. Which is what we all told her… Why would you be telling me things that I am completely aware of? Other than to hear yourself talk, so to speak? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/703 "2013-07-03T07:30:47Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > All I can say is it is a damn good thing George Zimmerman isn’t applying for VA benefits. :rolleyes: Hey, if you can show me where the phrase “benefit of the doubt” is a legal a rule in any other area of law, cool! Especially if you can show me where it is a legal rule that means the same thing as “reasonable doubt” vs. “presumption of innocence”. Unless, of course, you suffer from the same confused belief that the three terms are interchangeable in meaning? Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/704 "2013-07-03T07:56:49Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Hey, if you can show me where the phrase “benefit of the doubt” is a legal a rule… It was a quip. They look a fair bit different from an argument. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/705 "2013-07-03T08:22:22Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Why would you be telling me things that I am completely aware of? Other than to hear yourself talk, so to speak? Because your claim was that criminal defendants do not get the benefit of the doubt and you, as you so often do, attempted to back it up with a cite that literally says the complete opposite. An amusing habit of yours, that I will continue to point out when I see it. If you were and are completely aware that defendants get all the benefit of the doubt at trial, why attack people who say that? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/706 "2013-07-03T08:53:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because your claim was that criminal defendants do not get the benefit of the doubt Buzz! Nope! Deduct another 10,000 points! > [@Stoid](#): > > What do you mean by saying that “benefit of the doubt is applied to the defendant”? \*\*\*I think you are confused about the meaning of a presumption of innocence, \*\*\* His response was "what part of\*\* “reasonable doubt” \*\*do you not understand? My cite: > [@](#): > > +_ **Presumption of innocence and burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt** _ - > We all have heard about the right of an accused person to be presumed innocent. That means that when we started this trial every one of you should have the firm belief that (name the defendant) is not guilty. _ **The presumption of innocence says he’s entitled to the benefit of the doubt from the start.** _\<—hence my assumption about where your confusion lay- _ **benefit of the doubt is much closer in meaning to the presumption of innocence than to the reasonable doubt standard** _\> And the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt means that firm belief that he’s not guilty travels with (name the defendant) to the end of the trial unless it’s replaced with factual evidence so ironclad and so utterly believable as to totally remove from your minds each and every conceivable reasonable doubt of guilt. My cite says what I said at the start: benefit of the doubt and presumption of innocence are similar enough that Terr confused them…but then Terr denied that he was confusing presumption of innocence and benefit of the doubt by saying (essentially) that he was equating benefit of the doubt and reasonable doubt, rejecting my perception of his confusion. I said the same thing at the end that I said at the beginning, and my cite said the same thing I was saying all along. I know you were very excited about what you believed was a big score, sorry to disappoint you with the facts. (and that doesn’t even address Terr’s assertion about how reasonable doubt means that in the absence of evidence for or against we acquit! Criminy…) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/707 "2013-07-03T09:43:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Ahem… “One of the country’s most respected experts on gunshots/firearms \*\*AND a pathologist/medical examiner \*\*.” > > Why wouldn’t O’Mara bring in Vincent di Maio? Di Maio has plenty of experience as a medical examiner. Di Maio should certainly be able to describe head injuries as well as GSR and terminal ballistics. While it certainly doesn’t hurt his case, I guess, I don’t really know why the defense would call Di Maio. According to the state of Texas, > [@](#): > > Vincent Di Maio of San Antonio is a board-certified anatomical, clinical and forensic pathologist, and a private forensic pathology consultant. Anatomical pathology is concerned with the diagnosis of disease through the examination of organs, tissue, or the entire body (such as during an autopsy). Clinical pathology is concerned with the diagnosis of disease based on lab analysis of body fluids. Forensic pathology is concerned with determining the cause of death. He’s widely held to be an expert in gun-shot wounds. We know the cause of death in Martin’s case - I don’t think anyone disputes that Martin died of a gunshot, and that Zimmerman fired the gun, and I don’t see how Di Maio’s expertise helps Zimmernan’s self-defense claim. I suppose Di Maio could testify to Zimmerman’s injuries, but he’d only be doing so based on…photographs, which I thought was the reason why Team Zimmerman thought we shouldn’t give any credence to Dr. Rao’s testimony. I’d also note that the jury will also only be basing their opinions of Zimmerman’s injuries based on the photographs… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/708 "2013-07-03T09:56:50Z")
My guess would be he’s there to testify that Martin’s wounds are consistent with having been shot at close range from below. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/709 "2013-07-03T11:50:41Z")
The judge will have to decide if George’s school records come in. I find this wanna be cop strategy very troubling. Theres nothing wrong with aspiring to work as a police office, correction officer, or even a crime tech. Criminal Justice is the recommend major to enter those fields of work. George was studying just like other CJ students all over the US. The school where I work has a very large Criminal Justice program. Hundreds of students are working towards degrees. A lot of police officers take night classes so that they can earn a degree and move up in the Dept. To imply that wanting to be a cop makes you a potential vigilante is just offensive and insulting. I’m going to hate this tactic of the prosecution. [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/school-records-issue-zimmerman-murder-trial/nYcY3/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/school-records-issue-zimmerman-murder-trial/nYcY3/) > [@](#): > > The judge in the George Zimmerman murder trial will hear arguments from attorneys about whether to allow evidence about a college criminal justice course he took that included course work on Florida’s self-defense law. > > Judge Debra Nelson is hearing the arguments from attorneys Wednesday morning outside the jury’s presence. > > The prosecution said the school records will show that Zimmerman had knowledge of the law, though the neighborhood watch volunteer maintained in an interview with Fox News last year that he didn’t. The interview was played for the jury Tuesday. > [@](#): > > O’Mara told CNN on Tuesday night that if prosecutors start bringing up Zimmerman’s past, “then it really brings in what Trayvon Martin brings to the table, all of his violent acts that we know about and some of the fighting that he was involved in.” ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/710 "2013-07-03T12:30:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My guess would be he’s there to testify that Martin’s wounds are consistent with having been shot at close range from below. The autopsy report which has been out there for some time indicates the angle of the shot was straight from front to back. The report details the portions of the anatomy which were damaged. There has been testimony that one person was straddling the other. Whether it was Martin on top or Zimmerman on top is a point of dispute. I suspect that Vincent Di Maio will be called upon to attempt to explain how each person’s body would have had to be positioned to account for the known angle of entry of the shot. My thinking about it is that the straight front to back angle of the shot doesn’t make sense if the person on top is sitting with his torso essentially perpendicular to the person on the bottom. I think that would result in an upward angle for the shot. I think one person must have been bending over at the waist so to account for the angle of shot. And I think it would be much easier for the person on top to do that rather than the person on bottom. But my thinking is just a WAG. We’ll probably have to wait at least until next week for this testimony. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/711 "2013-07-03T13:26:05Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > The autopsy report which has been out there for some time indicates the angle of the shot was straight from front to back. The report details the portions of the anatomy which were damaged. > > There has been testimony that one person was straddling the other. Whether it was Martin on top or Zimmerman on top is a point of dispute. > > I suspect that Vincent Di Maio will be called upon to attempt to explain how each person’s body would have had to be positioned to account for the known angle of entry of the shot. > > My thinking about it is that the straight front to back angle of the shot doesn’t make sense if the person on top is sitting with his torso essentially perpendicular to the person on the bottom. I think that would result in an upward angle for the shot. > > I think one person must have been bending over at the waist so to account for the angle of shot. And I think it would be much easier for the person on top to do that rather than the person on bottom. > > But my thinking is just a WAG. We’ll probably have to wait at least until next week for this testimony. how many degrees is the average wrist capable of moving through? The angle of the shot is meaningless in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/712 "2013-07-03T13:38:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > how many degrees is the average wrist capable of moving through? The angle of the shot is meaningless in this respect. Was my WAG. There is a reason I am not an expert witness! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/713 "2013-07-03T13:53:52Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Was my WAG. There is a reason I am not an expert witness! I doubt the defence will call him if they don’t think he’ll back up their story. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/714 "2013-07-03T14:00:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I doubt the defence will call him if they don’t think he’ll back up their story. I would have thought the same about the prosecution, but this trial has certainly offered surprises in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/715 "2013-07-03T14:15:22Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > I would have thought the same about the prosecution, but this trial has certainly offered surprises in that regard. Well, yes, although the defence do actually seem to be trying. The whole thing does seem to be a bit of a farce, and a rather unpleasant one at that. It’s disrespectful to Martin and his family, it’s disrespectful to Zimmerman as his future is on the line, and it’s disrespectful to the people of Florida, as they should be able to have faith in their justice system, and one that appears to be prosecuting unwinable cases is not one worth believing in. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/716 "2013-07-03T14:19:34Z")
Talk about unintended consequences. Prosecution tried to play “gotcha” with Zimmerman’s remark on Hannity that he didn’t hear about SYG by putting up his law professor from college. Defense turned around and is using the witness to educate the jury about Florida self-defense laws. Prosecution is objecting furiously but in vain. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/717 "2013-07-03T14:19:51Z")
I’m watching the trial, the interview with the criminal procedure teacher. Oh my fucking God… Please shoot me. This is unbelievable… If I was a juror I would recommend the death penalty for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/718 "2013-07-03T14:32:08Z")
This is hilarious. Prosecution **just** filed an “in limine” motion to prohibit a defense expert witness that would have educated the jury on the self-defense laws in Florida. The motion has not been ruled on yet, but defense instead is using the prosecution witness for the same purpose. And very effectively too, imparting all kinds of things about the law to the jury that they tried to impart before and couldn’t because of prosecution’s objections. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/719 "2013-07-03T14:38:42Z")
Yes, that Jag Lawyer did a really good job explaining self defense. Much to the prosecutions dismay. I was laughing my butt off as the judge kept reminding the jury that she would instruct them on self defense guidelines. I’m sure the jury is wondering why theres multiple definitions. 😃 What a clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/720 "2013-07-03T14:45:49Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I’m watching the trial, the interview with the criminal procedure teacher. Oh my fucking God… Please shoot me. This is unbelievable.. If I was a juror I would recommend the death penalty for everybody. Would you say this was a net positive moment for the state, for the defense, or neither? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=37)