# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1541 "2013-07-11T04:18:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. First, GZ left the car. Then he answered. He left the car immediately after the dispatcher’s query and before he told the dispatcher where Martin ran. Which is a clear indication that he left the car in order to get the information to answer the dispatcher. Which you seem to find very inconvenient, since you keep dropping that little fact from your narrative. when asked where Martin ran Zimmerman said: "down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. -The Dispatcher then asked: “Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?” -To which Zimmerman replied: “The back entrance”. It sounds to me like Martin ran to the back of the houses and turned south (to the right) before Zimmerman stepped out of the truck. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1542 "2013-07-11T04:36:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m not aware of anyone saying GZ “refused” to shield his head with any part of his body. If he had a choice to protect his head, then he refused. If he was unable to protect his head, he failed to mention it and looked really good for taking a pummeling to his head. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Theoretical-speaking, you can protect your head by redirecting your attackers fists from their intended path. ..like a Tai Chi or Aikido guy, not like some schlub. > [@doorhinge](#): > > By haphazardly flailing your hands/arms/elbows in front of your face you could/might/maybe cause your opponent to miss your head completely. By getting your hands/arms/elbows in between the fist and your face. Random flailing of limbs won’t cause someone to wonderfully redirect an opponent’s punches. Those flailing things will get hit. Those flailing things will hit the opponent in random accessible places, like arms, face, torso. Besides If the blows miss, then he was not actually getting punched was he? Either Z was repeatedly punched or he was not. If he was not repeatedly punched, then it doesn’t seem like he should say that he was punched repeatedly. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Sleeved forearm to sleeved forearm contact could redirect the fists path causing your opponent to miss your head and not leave any marks on either persons forearms. Ime, striking ulna to ulna while fighting left bruises. Besides If the blows miss, then he was not actually getting punched was he? Either Z was repeatedly punched or he was not. If he was not repeatedly punched, then it doesn’t seem like he should say that he was punched repeatedly. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Elbow to forearm contact could redirect a strike. …and bruise. Unless the punching and blocking were gentle. Besides If the blows miss, then he was not actually getting punched was he? Either Z was repeatedly punched or he was not. If he was not repeatedly punched, then it doesn’t seem like he should say that he was punched repeatedly. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Squirming, twisting, or shrimping (?) could move your head away from the path of your opponenets fists. TM was straddling GZ, on top of him, doing the old ground and pound and GZ was laying on his back dodging? and TM was just whiffing? If TM wasn’t connecting, GZ wasn’t actually getting punched was he? GZ says he was punched repeatedly, doesn’t he? > [@doorhinge](#): > > idk but I think it’s possible, for a relatively short period of time, that an amateur can avoid being struck in the head by someone who had some street fighting experience. Yes, by covering up. …but not by laying on his back, straddled and dodging. …not by redirecting the punches with his bare hands. If GZ was punched a dozen times, he should have the effects of those dozen punches _somewhere_. imho anyway ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1543 "2013-07-11T05:19:59Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I realize that he’s not testifying. I was more curious about the judge’s behavior. She seemed entitled to know ahead of time if he were testifying and it seemed that GZ’s attorneys were surprised by her request. Oops. Misunderstood what you were asking. Good question though. I’d like to see the weigh-in by the lawyers on it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1544 "2013-07-11T06:18:46Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > …Yes, by covering up. …but not by laying on his back, straddled and dodging. …not by redirecting the punches with his bare hands. > > If GZ was punched a dozen times, he should have the effects of those dozen punches _somewhere_. > imho anyway That’s as good a theory as any I’ve heard. According to Di Maio, GZ sustained 6 injuries. Bao acted like a grad student who had never testified in court before. (He may have lost his value as an ME in future court cases.) As a juror, I would accept Di Maio’s testimony and ignore Bao. The fight didn’t take very long. It took place sometime between the time the connection was lost with DD and the pistol shot. We don’t know how many attempts TM made to punch GZ or how many times TM tried to slam GZ’s head on the concrete. At least 6 attempts were successful. There is no evidence to suggest that GZ landed any punches. Then there’s the issue of control of the firearm. GZ used it to stop the beating or to prevent TM from taking it from him. Will the jury decide that GZ reasonably believe he was in imminent danger when he pulled the trigger? Will the jury notice that the prosecution’s closing argument is considerably different than their opening statement? Many of the prosecution’s own witnesses seemed to favor GZ. The prosecution is offering too many versions (aka more than one) of what happened. The prosecution keeps introducing reasonable doubt and reasonable doubt means the jury must acquit. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1545 "2013-07-11T07:20:13Z")
^^ Yes, this a great question. And good description by PatriotX. I think it really just comes down to the fight, the almost infinite versions of it, and what the jury will think of the whole mess. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1546 "2013-07-11T09:25:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s “Not Guilty.” No retrial. > > Why? Because in that particular case, the court is saying that the state never proved their case at the trial. From my reading, they didn’t have a case to prove. Not even theoretically. I’m amazed they got the conviction. I would have loved to have heard their open and close. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1547 "2013-07-11T11:56:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m just so thankful the public provided the donations for Zimmerman to hire a quality lawyer and mount a good defense. If their forums are to be believed, you should thank your friends at [Stormfront](http://stormfront.org/) and [Vanguard News Network](http://vnnforum.com/) for giving George Zimmerman the bulk of his donations. I’m sure you’ll fit right in. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1548 "2013-07-11T12:18:07Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If their forums are to be believed, you should thank your friends at [Stormfront](http://stormfront.org/) and [Vanguard News Network](http://vnnforum.com/) for giving George Zimmerman the bulk of his donations. I’m sure you’ll fit right in. > > - Honesty Perhaps you should question why it’s necessary for such people to jump in to ensure someone gets a fair trial, something that should be a human right for all, and something you want to deny him. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1549 "2013-07-11T12:41:31Z")
Zimmerman only raised a few hundred thousand. I’d estimate half of that went for his bail and private security. He’s been in hiding for a year. Two attorneys worked on this case for a full year. I’m surprised they even had enough money. Zimmerman may still owe some legal bills after the trial. This wasn’t an extravagant defense at all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1550 "2013-07-11T12:42:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you should question why it’s necessary for such people to jump in to ensure someone gets a fair trial, something that should be a human right for all, and something you want to deny him. Who says it was necessary? If the case against him was so weak, surely any public defender he got could have won him the case. And Zimmerman is hardly the first “innocent” schlub too poor to afford a good lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1551 "2013-07-11T12:44:49Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If Zimmerman walks it won’t be because Martin was black. It’ll have everything to do with Florida self defense statutes seriously stacking the deck against the prosecution. You statement sounds as if the “prosecution” has some other code in which it prosecutes individuals against other than the laws of the state. If the laws of the State of Florida are what Zimmerman is not guilty of, then there should be nothing to prosecute. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1552 "2013-07-11T13:11:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Perhaps you should question why it’s necessary for such people to jump in to ensure someone gets a fair trial, something that should be a human right for all, and something you want to deny him. _whoosh_ - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1553 "2013-07-11T14:15:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Not to mention the governor of Florida personally intervening. The U.S. is supposed to be better than this. Politicians aren’t supposed to influence the criminal justice system. But, when the public gets angry, the politicians will sacrifice anyone. > > I’m just so thankful the public provided the donations for Zimmerman to hire a quality lawyer and mount a good defense. I think he’d have a one way ticket to prison with a public defender. > > Now it’s up to the jury. Perhaps I’m showing my bias, but public defenders typically have more trial experience than many lawyers in private practice, all other things being equal. Public defenders are typically skilled advocates. Where the money comes into play is in two important areas: (1) The ability to consult and hire experts, investigators, and to conduct decent independent investigations, and (2) The ability to focus all your time on one case, as opposed to having a stack of file folders on your desk So please don’t slam public defenders _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1554 "2013-07-11T14:23:33Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, a man is arrested, lucky to make bond, put on trial with a possible life sentence, hears a jury and judge pronounce him guilty and sentence him to life imprisonment, then spends the next few months to a year in jail when he finds out from a higher court that based upon the evidence the state had, he never should have been brought to trial to begin with. The ‘few months to a year’ in jail is a lot shorter than the time that Martin will be dead, which is FOREVER. You want to carry a gun around, and have the ‘right’ to exercise mind-numbingly poor judgement that results in you shooting someone dead? Sorry dude, you absolutely should end up in court. I don’t think he’s guilty of 2nd degree murder, but reckless homicide / manslaughter or some other charge? Abso-fucking-lutely. Either way, I still expect him to walk because of how skewed the law is (and how mind-blowingly bad the prosecution was \). So congratulations; he won’t spend the next 20 years in jail. I’m not going to lose a wink of sleep over any jail time he serves or any legal bills he has. Small price to pay for the ‘right’ to play wannabe-cop. Back to the actual trial: Why in the world didn’t the State bring up a) the two-minute gap between end of NEN call and start of fight? b) how impossible it would be for Martin to see the black gun, in a black holster, at night, when the gun was underneath Zimmerman? c) how impossible it is for Zimmerman to grab Martin’s arm with his right arm and draw his gun with the same arm? d) how impossible it was for Martin to have done the whole ‘disappear behind the houses, them come back and circle my car’ bit? e) how implausible it is that Zimmerman ends up struggling -south- down the path when he says he was walking backwards to the -west- as Martin approached him? f) how weird it is that Martin would approach Zimmerman from behind, but then issue a challenge instead of just jumping him if he planned on sucker-punching him? g) how zimmerman changed his statement from ‘one punch, I fell backwards immediately and Martin jumped on top of me’ to 'well, I didn’t fall down right away, I sort of stumbled -forwards- etc etc. I can’t for the life of me figure out what the State was thinking. There’s no way they’d do this bad of job with the case on purpose, so I can only conclude that they are actually incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1555 "2013-07-11T14:25:59Z")
Judge has apparently ruled that the jury will also receive jury instructions on a lesser-included-offence of manslaughter. The prosecution wants to add a third-degree felony murder charge arguing the shooting took place in the context of felony child abuse. This is the first I’ve heard of a child abuse angle. The prosecution sounds like they are grasping at straws. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1556 "2013-07-11T14:27:11Z")
Cripes, what’s next - charging Zimmerman with littering for leaving the body on the ground? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1557 "2013-07-11T14:35:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps I’m showing my bias, but public defenders typically have more trial experience than many lawyers in private practice, all other things being equal. Public defenders are typically skilled advocates. > > Where the money comes into play is in two important areas: > > (1) The ability to consult and hire experts, investigators, and to conduct decent independent investigations, and > (2) The ability to focus all your time on one case, as opposed to having a stack of file folders on your desk > > So please don’t slam public defenders _per se_. I’m skeptical. For one thing, public defenders are underpaid relative to successful lawyers in private practice. So it stands to reason that the more successful and talented lawyers would be more inclined to move on than the less successful ones who don’t have as much opportunity to do so. (You’re defending public defenders here, but you are no longer a public defender yourself, and are apparently a lot wealthier than you would be had you remained one.) In addition, the very lack of resources that you mention means that while public defenders have a lot of trial experience, they don’t have much experience doing the type of lengthy involved trial with expert witnesses and in depth analyses etc. No doubt there are many exceptions - especially talented young lawyers at the outset of their careers who will eventually move on - but the stereotype probably has a lot of truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1558 "2013-07-11T14:51:05Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The ‘few months to a year’ in jail is a lot shorter than the time that Martin will be dead, which is FOREVER. > > You want to carry a gun around, and have the ‘right’ to exercise mind-numbingly poor judgement that results in you shooting someone dead? Sorry dude, you absolutely should end up in court. > > I don’t think he’s guilty of 2nd degree murder, but reckless homicide / manslaughter or some other charge? Abso-fucking-lutely. Either way, I still expect him to walk because of how skewed the law is (and how mind-blowingly bad the prosecution was \). > > So congratulations; he won’t spend the next 20 years in jail. I’m not going to lose a wink of sleep over any jail time he serves or any legal bills he has. Small price to pay for the ‘right’ to play wannabe-cop. > > Back to the actual trial: Why in the world didn’t the State bring up a) the two-minute gap between end of NEN call and start of fight? b) how impossible it would be for Martin to see the black gun, in a black holster, at night, when the gun was underneath Zimmerman? c) how impossible it is for Zimmerman to grab Martin’s arm with his right arm and draw his gun with the same arm? d) how impossible it was for Martin to have done the whole ‘disappear behind the houses, them come back and circle my car’ bit? e) how implausible it is that Zimmerman ends up struggling -south- down the path when he says he was walking backwards to the -west- as Martin approached him? f) how weird it is that Martin would approach Zimmerman from behind, but then issue a challenge instead of just jumping him if he planned on sucker-punching him? g) how zimmerman changed his statement from ‘one punch, I fell backwards immediately and Martin jumped on top of me’ to 'well, I didn’t fall down right away, I sort of stumbled -forwards- etc etc. > > I can’t for the life of me figure out what the State was thinking. There’s no way they’d do this bad of job with the case on purpose, so I can only conclude that they are actually incompetent. The two minute gap is a bad idea for the prosecutors, since it would plant in the jurors mind that Trayvon had six minutes to get away, the four minutes from the time of call where he took off running, plus the two minutes to the confrontation, and it was that close to the T. In the reenactment, Zimmerman pinned Trayvon’s arm between his shoulder and ribcage, allowing him enough time to reach for his own gun. Multiple witnesses said they heard the confrontation begin west of the T, than move south. If you’ve never been sucker punched, getting the other guy off guard by saying something to get closer is a good strategy. It wasn’t totally dark, Trayvon could certainly have seen the gun, which was on Zimmerman’s hip, not back, when Zimmerman’s coat rolled up during the struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1559 "2013-07-11T15:03:58Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Judge has apparently ruled that the jury will also receive jury instructions on a lesser-included-offence of manslaughter. > > The prosecution wants to add a third-degree felony murder charge arguing the shooting took place in the context of felony child abuse. > > This is the first I’ve heard of a child abuse angle. The prosecution sounds like they are grasping at straws. This is the best news I’ve heard all day. Wish I could watch the trial from work. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1560 "2013-07-11T15:04:09Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You statement sounds as if the “prosecution” has some other code in which it prosecutes individuals against other than the laws of the state. If the laws of the State of Florida are what Zimmerman is not guilty of, then there should be nothing to prosecute. So why is he in court then? The point I was attempting to make is that the outcome has nothing to do with the color of the kid that was killed. The outcome (if he walks) has everything to do with the lack of direct witnesses and Florida law that allows a lot more leeway in terms of self defense than most states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=79)