# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 79
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1561 "2013-07-11T15:09:04Z")
Looks like the judge is really trying to cover ALL the details. From the CNN blog: > [@](#): > > 11:05 a.m. ET: {Judge} Nelson is talking about how a comma needs to removed from the jury instructions, because the comma has caused cases to be reversed in the past. Better get all the i’s dotted and all the t’s crossed too. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1562 "2013-07-11T15:38:00Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If their forums are to be believed, you should thank your friends at [Stormfront](http://stormfront.org/) and [Vanguard News Network](http://vnnforum.com/) for giving George Zimmerman the bulk of his donations. I’m sure you’ll fit right in. > > - Honesty Knock off the comments like that as they work as insults just as well as name-calling. You also made [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462049&postcount=4) in the other thread which entails the same thing. If you really have beef with anything another poster says, take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1563 "2013-07-11T15:46:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps I’m showing my bias, but public defenders typically have more trial experience than many lawyers in private practice, all other things being equal. Public defenders are typically skilled advocates. > > Where the money comes into play is in two important areas: > > (1) The ability to consult and hire experts, investigators, and to conduct decent independent investigations, and > (2) The ability to focus all your time on one case, as opposed to having a stack of file folders on your desk > > So please don’t slam public defenders _per se_. That has been my experience as well. They are generally on par skill-wise with the prosecution. Or maybe a little better. They are a bit more likely to push for a plea bargain. A private lawyer will ride a losing case to the end as long as the checks don’t bounce. That doesn’t mean they are better lawyers. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m skeptical. > > For one thing, public defenders are underpaid relative to successful lawyers in private practice. So it stands to reason that the more successful and talented lawyers would be more inclined to move on than the less successful ones who don’t have as much opportunity to do so. (You’re defending public defenders here, but you are no longer a public defender yourself, and are apparently a lot wealthier than you would be had you remained one.) > > In addition, the very lack of resources that you mention means that while public defenders have a lot of trial experience, they don’t have much experience doing the type of lengthy involved trial with expert witnesses and in depth analyses etc. > > No doubt there are many exceptions - especially talented young lawyers at the outset of their careers who will eventually move on - but the stereotype probably has a lot of truth to it. Public Defenders around here make about 100k. Private practice lawyers have a chance to make more but they have to deal with a lot of overhead as well as trying to get clients in a state with the highest lawyer per capita ratio in the country. Getting hired as a junior associate with a big firm means a lot of hours with bad (relative) pay and little or no trial experience for years. Being a prosecutor or PD is a highly sought out position around here. And its a way to get a good reputation as a litigator. Many do 10-15 years and then move on. Same with prosecutors. The bad ones don’t last. There are plenty of good lawyers who want that job. > [@Iggy](#): > > Judge has apparently ruled that the jury will also receive jury instructions on a lesser-included-offence of manslaughter. > > The prosecution wants to add a third-degree felony murder charge arguing the shooting took place in the context of felony child abuse. > > This is the first I’ve heard of a child abuse angle. The prosecution sounds like they are grasping at straws. IMHO the chance for conviction went up tremendously. Hugh mistake to go for murder 2 in the first place. Way back in the first thread (while the conversation was civil before it got hijacked by those pushing the Somebody Must Pay Doctrine) I said that in my state he would have been charged and pretty easily convicted of manslaughter. I still don’t think they met the burden of proof as per Florida law. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1564 "2013-07-11T15:46:33Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Back to the actual trial: Why in the world didn’t the State bring up a) the two-minute gap between end of NEN call and start of fight? b) how impossible it would be for Martin to see the black gun, in a black holster, at night, when the gun was underneath Zimmerman? c) how impossible it is for Zimmerman to grab Martin’s arm with his right arm and draw his gun with the same arm? d) how impossible it was for Martin to have done the whole ‘disappear behind the houses, them come back and circle my car’ bit? e) how implausible it is that Zimmerman ends up struggling -south- down the path when he says he was walking backwards to the -west- as Martin approached him? f) how weird it is that Martin would approach Zimmerman from behind, but then issue a challenge instead of just jumping him if he planned on sucker-punching him? g) how zimmerman changed his statement from ‘one punch, I fell backwards immediately and Martin jumped on top of me’ to 'well, I didn’t fall down right away, I sort of stumbled -forwards- etc etc.. Probably as because they are experienced prosecutors and they know those things are not really issues. In any highly examined case like this there are always armchair lawyers that think some trivial side point or the other is critical, when the experienced experts know it is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1565 "2013-07-11T15:53:25Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is the best news I’ve heard all day. Wish I could watch the trial from work. 😕 Why? Because it increases the likelihood that Zimmerman will be charged with _something_? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1566 "2013-07-11T15:57:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Probably as because they are experienced prosecutors and they know those things are not really issues. In any highly examined case like this there are always armchair lawyers that think some trivial side point or the other is critical, when the experienced experts know it is meaningless. Based on their performance to date, I wouldn’t put a whole lot of confidence in the prosecution’s judgment of what is meaningless. [QUOTE=Loach] IMHO the chance for conviction went up tremendously. [/QUOTE] Agreed. IMO this is the out for jurors who think “well, the kid is dead - we have to convict him of **something** ”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1567 "2013-07-11T16:00:01Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If their forums are to be believed, you should thank your friends at [Stormfront](http://stormfront.org/) and [Vanguard News Network](http://vnnforum.com/) for giving George Zimmerman the bulk of his donations. I’m sure you’ll fit right in. > > - Honesty You need to stop these insults right now, both in this thread [and others](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16462049&postcount=4). ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1568 "2013-07-11T16:02:21Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Why? Because it increases the likelihood that Zimmerman will be charged with _something_? It’s more than a little something: he’ll be in jail for at least 15+ years. Florida law says there’s a 20 year minimum when the crime is carried out with a firearm. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1569 "2013-07-11T16:18:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > This is the best news I’ve heard all day. Wish I could watch the trial from work. 😕 They can also try for third degree child abuse if that doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1570 "2013-07-11T16:32:05Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > They can also try for third degree child abuse if that doesn’t work. Here’s an idea: When Zimmerman parked his car and got out, did he signal first? Better yet: Was he wearing his seatbelt? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1571 "2013-07-11T17:11:40Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > They can also try for third degree child abuse if that doesn’t work. Don’t forget about that perjury charge, too :). I hope the Court hasn’t dropped those charges against him or his beautiful and stunning wife. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1572 "2013-07-11T17:13:40Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Don’t forget about that perjury charge, too :). I hope the Court hasn’t dropped those charges against him or his beautiful and stunning wife. > > - Honesty Are you certain George was charged with perjury? The only references I can find are to Shellie being charged. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1573 "2013-07-11T17:18:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Are you certain George was charged with perjury? The only references I can find are to Shellie being charged. Just like with his numerous other statements, Honesty is fibbing here. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1574 "2013-07-11T17:25:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Are you certain George was charged with perjury? The only references I can find are to Shellie being charged. My mistake. Though it’s odd why George wasn’t charged, too. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1575 "2013-07-11T17:37:08Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > My mistake. Though it’s odd why George wasn’t charged, too. No it isn’t. Once again, it’s because there’s no actual evidence he lied under oath. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1576 "2013-07-11T17:40:03Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > My mistake. Though it’s odd why George wasn’t charged, too. Perjury in Florida [applies only to](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0837/Sections/0837.02.html) false statements under oath in an official proceeding. Only Shellie told the court under oath that the Zimmermans had no money. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1577 "2013-07-11T17:47:55Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > My mistake. Though it’s odd why George wasn’t charged, too. Usually to charge someone with perjury you need to be able to point to a materially false statement made under oath. Which statement of Zimmerman’s do you contend supplied probable cause that he committed perjury? ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1578 "2013-07-11T18:12:36Z")
The judge did not allow the third-degree felony murder charge (related to child abuse) to go to the jury. The prosecution has closed its case and is offering its closing statement. IIRC they were estimating a couple hours for this. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1579 "2013-07-11T18:14:04Z")
It’s probably been asked and answered earlier in this thread, but I’m going to ask again rather that wade back through 30 pages and 1500 posts. Is a unanimous verdict required or will a simple majority suffice? And if it’s a majority, how will having manslaughter thrown in as an option affect things? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1580 "2013-07-11T18:17:50Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > The judge did not allow the third-degree felony murder charge (related to child abuse) to go to the jury. > > The prosecution has closed its case and is offering its closing statement. IIRC they were estimating a couple hours for this. Less than an hour - wow. edit - misread the blog post - it said “He thanks the jurors for their time and patience.” - thought that meant he was done. move along - nothing to see here - [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=78) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=80)