# State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman Trial Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501 "2013-06-20T20:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1921 "2013-07-13T18:18:16Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > The fact that you don’t agree does not make it incoherent. In that case, I would have to ask you to stop, if I don’t like your opinions. I made it clear, like many people believe, that gzs story was riddled with inconsistencies and improbabilities. His lawyers know that given half a chance he would hang himself under cross exam… I would have gone with: "your posts have been illogical and emotionally driven. You believe multiple events happened without proof of any of them beyond your disbelief of Zimmerman. Your entire review of the case has been Liar Liar Pants on Fire. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1922 "2013-07-13T18:28:49Z")
I didn’t realize they could hang on one charge. [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-what-if-hung-jury,0,4029100.story](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-what-if-hung-jury,0,4029100.story) > [@](#): > > According to Mazin, a jury can hang - failing to reach a verdict - on all counts, or only on some. > > In other words, it’s possible the jury could decide Zimmerman is not guilty of second-degree murder, but hang on manslaughter, the lesser charge they’re also considering. > > If a mistrial is declared, the state can retry Zimmerman on any charges the jury “hangs” on, Mazin said. > > If the jury can’t reach a verdict on either charge, “Zimmerman would start right back at square one,” Mazin said. “It would be as if the original trial never happened and a new jury would be selected. All of the evidence and testimony would be re-presented to a new jury.” ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1923 "2013-07-13T18:45:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would have gone with: "your posts have been illogical and emotionally driven. You believe multiple events happened without proof of any of them beyond your disbelief of Zimmerman. Your entire review of the case has been Liar Liar Pants on Fire. No matter how ludicrous or fantasy based some of your and some other posts are on the case, I acknowledge the right of those people to have their opinions, (however delusional) ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1924 "2013-07-13T18:51:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Riddled with inconsistencies, like someone claiming they saw a television show on some channel that they can’t remember, that included a claim that Zimmerman had only one friend? > > Is that the kind of inconsistency you mean? The fact that I didnt write down the name of the show I saw has not a damn thing to do with the many inconsistencies of the murder defendant. I am not the one on trial, I didnt chase down and kill a high school kid. If Im not mistaken, you claimed you dont know the names of the streets right next to where youve lived for twenty years…I find that a helluva lot more unbelievable than not recalling the name of a program you catch on tv. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1925 "2013-07-13T20:32:50Z")
Pit thread, so we can move beyond insults and whatnot in this one: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=696431](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=696431) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1926 "2013-07-13T20:43:42Z")
Doesn’t the one prosecutor sound exactly like Kevin Costner?? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1927 "2013-07-13T21:00:02Z")
I’ll be honest. I didn’t think deliberations would take this long. Either there’s one or two hold outs (my gut is that the holdouts are for charging Zimmerman with manslaughter), or they’re all in their laughing at themselves while sharing raunchy stories. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1928 "2013-07-13T21:02:36Z")
I damn sure don’t envy the jury, regardless of the verdict. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1929 "2013-07-13T21:16:41Z")
My fours hours of deliberation speculation went by the wayside early too. I think there is a lower probability of public disorder related to the verdict, whatever the verdict may be, if it is not released on a Saturday night. At this point I hope deliberations continue to another day. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1930 "2013-07-13T21:23:10Z")
I don’t understand why so many predicted a super fast verdict - have these threads taught you nothing? Why would you believe that jury is made up of six female **Magivers** and **Steophans**? Why not some **Stoids** and **you with the faces** in the mix? I watched the defense close and the state rebuttal last night, and just from those and the state close, it doesn’t seem that there is very much floating around the internet as evidence that did not make it into the trial as evidence, and of course there seems to be a lot more in the trial in terms of details, as well as professionally put together “aids to understanding”. Having also read the jury instructions, I can see jurors coming to exactly the conclusions that I have come to, which is exactly the conclusion the state urged them to come to. So if the jury has a couple of Stoids, a couple of Magivers, and a couple of…gosh, do we have any board examples of people who could really have gone either way?..in any case, predicting immediate verdict/acquittal? Not likely. I won’t be shocked if they hang. [And here’s where (again) I am disconnecting from the rest of you in a way that has not been adequately explained to me is somehow wrong: the understanding of reasonable doubt.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16458027&postcount=1417) Because I really can imagine being on that jury (if I came in without any information) and arriving exactly where I am right now in my opinion, which would lead me to vote guilty. And remember I don’t have an underlying agenda, even though I do have a strong political point of view. I’m not a race warrior and I’m not interested in banning guns, even though I hate them. I do not think that having or carrying a gun is instantly wrong and evil, but I do believe the science about what carrying a gun can do to one’s point of view. So my “bias” is the bias I developed from looking at the evidence and seeing exactly what the prosecution saw and laid out at length. My bias is the bias I always have: truth. In this case, truth can only be deduced and inferred, and it’s clear that even then people will deduce and infer differently. But that doesn’t undermine my clarity about what I see. Not what I insert or invent or imagine, but what flows logically from the facts that we do have. And from that, I find myself completely without the slightest doubt of any kind that Zimmerman is directly and _ **criminally responsible** _ for the death of Trayvon Martin. While I genuinely believe his actions did meet the criteria for M2, I would be perfectly content with manslaughter. But no acquittal. And because I know boatloads of people who feel _ **exactly** _ the same way, including no strong race issues or gun banning agendas, it is fascinating to me that so many of you were so convinced there would be instant acquittal. And while I know this will fall on many deaf ears, I count on a few with sharp hearing to understand me: this is why I feel even more confident about my opinion. I can see the other side. I can acknowledge it. I can comprehend how it came to be. So I would _ **never** _ have predicted an instant verdict. And it is because of my ability to understand, recognize and acknowledge the existence of opinions to stridently opposing my own that I am confident in the openness of my mind. I can see all the sides. I can (and have) described and explained them for others. But the failure of anyone, on either side, to even acknowledge, much less understand, the opposing view makes their opinion a little less valuable. Their bias has blinded them to reason. My dearest friend is a far leftier lefty than I am, perfectly happy to embrace the most extreme views, and I am constantly having to show her how she is sacrificing reason to politics. In this case, she has been strident about the fact that Zimmerman having a gun vs. Trayvon being unarmed makes Zimmerman guilty, and I’ve had to explain to her the error of her thinking both legally and logically. Many is the time in our conversations she has had to laughingly concede to ME that she would never in a million years serve on a jury. So yeah, the jury is actually thinking, examining, reasoning. This case is _ **not** _ open and shut if you bring your critical thinking skills to bear. The prosecution could have done a much better job, much crisper, clearer and cleaner, but they did manage to get it all in for the jury to examine for themselves. And that’s their function. And the jury may very well have strong opinions, but also significant doubts, leading to acquittal. But it’s certainly possible that they have very strong opinions without any meaningful doubt, leading to conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1931 "2013-07-13T21:24:26Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Why not some **Stoids** and **you with the faces** in the mix? Because they would have been excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1932 "2013-07-13T21:50:51Z")
I thought four hours would have provided ample time to review the relevant legal questions in the jury instructions and come to a conclusion. There is so much agreement on some of the fundamental elements of the charges that there should be very little discussion necessary on those points. Both prosecution and defense agree that the shooting took place in Seminole County on a certain date and that Zimmerman shot Martin with Z’s own gun. There are only two real questions the jury faces: was it justifiable due to self defense? if not, was the element of malice or ill will proven to support murder 2? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1933 "2013-07-13T21:57:30Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’ll be honest. I didn’t think deliberations would take this long. > > Either there’s one or two hold outs (my gut is that the holdouts are for charging Zimmerman with manslaughter), or they’re all in their laughing at themselves while sharing raunchy stories. I expect a hung jury. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1934 "2013-07-13T21:57:51Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I don’t understand why so many predicted a super fast verdict - have these threads taught you nothing? Why would you believe that jury is made up of six female **Magivers** and **Steophans**? Why not some **Stoids** and **you with the faces** in the mix? During the voir dire portion of the trial, you would have been asked if you had already formed an opinion about the defendants guilt or innocence. You stated that you’ve believed GZ was guilty before the trial ever started. If you answer the lawyers question truthfully, you and anyone who held the same pre-concieved notion, would have been excluded. Sorry. No Stoid-type predermined opinions on the jury. A super fast verdict would depend on what the jury believes, not on what has been written in these threads. “IF” the jury had addressed the self-defense issue first and 6 jurors believed that GZ had used lethal force to defend his life or prevent SBH, there would be no need to discuss anything else. Gz would have been acquitted of all charges. Case closed. However, the jury asked for a list of items from the judge. The judge asked the lawyers to supply the list which the judge then gave to the jury. I believe that indicates that the jurors intend to talk about lots-o-stuff. This is the first time they’ve had to do so. It could take days or even weeks to reach a verdict. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1935 "2013-07-13T21:59:49Z")
The jury has asked for clarification on the instruction regarding manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1936 "2013-07-13T22:06:49Z")
Sounds like the jury doesn’t believe the 2nd degree murder charge. Still leaves justifable use of lethal force (self-defense) and manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1937 "2013-07-13T22:15:19Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > No matter how ludicrous or fantasy based some of your and some other posts are on the case, I acknowledge the right of those people to have their opinions, (however delusional) an opinion without fact is called a SWAG and you’re entitled to that on an emotional level. You can’t play connect the dots and hope someone believes the scenarios you create. It’s immoral. If there was evidence that shifted away from Zimmerman’s testimony I would acknowledge it. Frankly I was expecting to see some of and looking for it. If there is evidence that Zimmerman turned south I would acknowledge at least some basis for manslaughter. But there doesn’t appear to be any. From a statistical POV it’s damn hard to lie for 5 hours AND make a video and have it stand up to the as yet unknown evidence that follows. This is what you’re seeing. It’s not that he’s definitively innocent, it’s that he’s definitively NOT GUILTY based on the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1938 "2013-07-13T22:18:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It’s a damn sad case all around but one in which I hope that Z doesn’t have to be sacrificed on the altar of this nation’s past sins. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1939 "2013-07-13T22:19:31Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > The jury has asked for clarification on the instruction regarding manslaughter. Yeah. Judge, what’s manslaughter again? Well, there’s this man, see? And he’s been slaughtered… Sounds like more than a couple of jurors want clarification on the definition. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501/1940 "2013-07-13T22:20:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Sounds like the jury doesn’t believe the 2nd degree murder charge. > > Still leaves justifable use of lethal force (self-defense) and manslaughter. I don’t know how to read this. The talking heads think its great for the prosecution, but it could equally be the jury just dotting the i and making sure that before they acquit him, they’ve decided he didn’t meet any of the elements on the list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-trial-thread/661501.md?page=98)