# State of humanity in the far future? Starts of the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 17, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826 "2004-06-17T06:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/1 "2004-06-17T06:11:34Z")
Can you give me some examples of the state of humanity in the far future in fiction? What’re some fictional reasons various authors have given for the birth of the universe? ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/2 "2004-06-18T19:23:53Z")
> [@Aslan of Narnia](#): > > Can you give me some examples of the state of humanity in the far future in fiction? I’m not sure what you’re asking, but The **Dune** series takes place at least 10,000 years in the future(probably a lot more, since the date for the first book is given as 10,000 years after a certain event, but we don’t know when that event is to take place in our future). Olaf Stapleton’s **Last and First Men** is a history of Mankind from 1930 until millions and millions of years into the future, where the Human race goes through about 17 different changes and nearly is wiped out a number of times. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/3 "2004-06-18T19:36:24Z")
> [@Aslan of Narnia](#): > > Can you give me some examples of the state of humanity in the far future in fiction? I don’t want to give away the ending, but Stephen Baxter’s Evolution spans 500 million years of human evolution, from the time of the dinosaurs to some 450+ million years in the future from now. Certainly an interesting read. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/4 "2004-06-18T20:28:40Z")
Yes, **Last and First Men** is certainly one of the most ambitious SF ideas ever, and Stapledon makes it work! You have to admire a book that tosses off everything from apes to now in the first chapter. You might also look at Poul Andersen’s **Tau Zero** , in which a ramscoop spacecraft has a little accident and can only keep accelerating, or Michael Moorcock’s **Dancers at the End of Time** trilogy, which really is set at the end of time. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/5 "2004-06-18T20:40:40Z")
Define “far future.” 500 years? A million? In Jack Chalker’s Well of Souls series, the majority of the universe as we know it is a mathematical construct created as a sort of mental exercise by some immensely powerful beings. In Tolkien’s The Silmarillion, the universe as depicted was the LARP version of an immensely complex, long and beautiful song created by the gods (they all sat around and grooved on this one song for a long time, then, when they were done, the main god hit the Start button and the live-action version started playing). ---
**Author:** ![Wearia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Wearia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wearia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/6 "2004-06-18T23:49:44Z")
Asimov’s Foundation books are around the year 11,000 if IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/7 "2004-06-18T23:56:59Z")
If you’re going to talk about Olaf Stapledon, _Star Maker_ has a much more ambitious timescale than _Last and First Men_ … ISTR that Arthur Clarke’s _The City and the Stars_ is set at least a couple of hundred million years into the future. And Stephen Baxter is always good for some cosmic immensities, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/8 "2004-06-19T00:06:18Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re asking, but The **Dune** series takes place at least 10,000 years in the future(probably a lot more, since the date for the first book is given as 10,000 years after a certain event, but we don’t know when that event is to take place in our future). FTR, based on the timeline in the Dune Encyclopedia, the events in first book take place a little over 20,000 years into the future. ---
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/9 "2004-06-19T00:56:18Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Define “far future.” 500 years? A million? 1000+ years, I suppose. What’s the deal with Dune? Isn’t it some sort of feudal society (this is going from my distant recollection of reading one of the books). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/10 "2004-06-19T02:33:33Z")
> [@Aslan of Narnia](#): > > What’s the deal with Dune? Isn’t it some sort of feudal society (this is going from my distant recollection of reading one of the books). Yes. It is modeled on a feudal society. There was an emperor and a court and the planets, usually one and sometimes more, were essentially fiefdoms of various families. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/11 "2004-06-19T04:21:12Z")
To answer both of your questions, read Asimov’s “The Last Question”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/12 "2004-06-19T07:07:30Z")
Yes, you should read “The Last Question.” Your second question is addressed interestingly in Hogan’s “Thrice Upon a Time.” It’s a novel about a scientific team that discovers that certain nuclear processes create particles that travel back in time, and develops a method to send messages back to themselves at earlier points in the story. Hence the title, as each time they tell themselves the future the story has to reset to play out a new future based on that knowledge. At one point, someone calculates what would happen in ‘The Big Crunch’ at the end of the universe. It turns out all matter and energy would be turned into these time-reversed particles and would go back to the Big Bang, where they would convert back to matter and energy. Thus the universe’s end is the cause of its beginning, and the cycle is completely closed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/13 "2004-06-19T08:12:09Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > FTR, based on the timeline in the Dune Encyclopedia, the events in first book take place a little over 20,000 years into the future. Nope. \*Dune \*starts in the year 10,191 of the Empire, which was founded after the battle of Corrin, which will occur (IIRC) 25,000 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/14 "2004-06-19T08:20:20Z")
_The Mote in God’s Eye_ by Niven and Pournelle takes place a bit over 1000 years from now. It’s a pretty interesting setting and a good book, as is the sequel. FTL travel is only possible along certain “tram lines” between stars, which sometimes end within the star, making travel difficult at best. Ship shields work by storing energy and dissipating it later, but they can be burned through or overloaded, in which case the ship explodes violently. Other that those two things, the science is pretty hard. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/15 "2004-06-19T10:20:11Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > Nope. \*Dune \*starts in the year 10,191 of the Empire, which was founded after the battle of Corrin, which will occur (IIRC) 25,000 years from now. Now that I think of it, I may be off by about 10,00 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/16 "2004-06-19T10:23:30Z")
More like **10,000** years– :smack: –so \*Dune \*takes place more than 25,000 years from now. I should probably go to bed now. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/17 "2004-06-19T13:41:41Z")
> [@Steve Wright](#): > > ISTR that Arthur Clarke’s _The City and the Stars_ is set at least a couple of hundred million years into the future. One of my favorite books. Diaspar would be an amazing city to see. It is set at least a billion years in the future as the city itself is over a billion years old. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/18 "2004-06-19T15:44:08Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > Nope. \*Dune \*starts in the year 10,191 of the Empire, which was founded after the battle of Corrin, which will occur (IIRC) 25,000 years from now. Umm, the exact answer is 24,387 years. Or a little over 20,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/19 "2004-06-20T06:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=Steve Wright] If you’re going to talk about Olaf Stapledon, _Star Maker_ has a much more ambitious timescale than _Last and First Men_ … [/QOUTE] I’ve heard that, but I’ve only read the Last and First men. I have Star Maker here, but I’ve got to finish another project before I start that. I really liked Last and First Men, even if it had a few problems. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2004, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826/20 "2004-06-20T11:26:56Z")
[According to Vernor Vinge’s calculations](http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/vinge/vinge-sing.html), the Singularity will hit in around 2030, which means the far future begins in about 25 years. Be sure and bring a towel and an interstellar toothbrush! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-of-humanity-in-the-far-future-starts-of-the-universe/250826.md?page=2)