# State some controversial beliefs that you have. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 25, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886 "2006-10-25T20:13:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/421 "2006-10-29T18:53:19Z")
No problem, **Li’l Pluck**. I’m also an atheist/agnostic Jew, and although I don’t practice much, it’s an important part of my cultural heritage and who I am. There were some heated debates on the topic a few years back, but no one seems to have had problems with it since then. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/422 "2006-10-29T19:20:21Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] I don’t mean to be obtuse or anything like that–and I’m not even sure that your post was in response to my post (though I think it was)–but could you elaborate, please? [/QUOTE] Not really, your post just reminded me of it. It’s just that often, we act towards others in a way that seems appropriate to us - i.e. what we imagine that we would like others to do for us - without regard to what _the other_ would like. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/423 "2006-10-29T19:53:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I like that. I wish I could be a Jew. [/QUOTE] Heh-heh-heh. But you _can_, my fellow Doper, you _can_. We have this interesting thing called “conversion,” and if you don’t mind learning how to read Hebrew (trust me, not as difficult to learn as one might think), learning about kashrut (the kosher laws)–whether or not you keep them is up to you, IMO–and learning about all of the other stuff that has the potential to cross a rabbi’s eyes, the wonder that is Judaism can indeed be yours, too. And hey, you’re a woman, so no ritual circumcision for _you_! 😃 IOW, ComeOnOverToTheDarkSideWeHaveChallah. (Sorry, COOTTDSWHCookies, I couldn’t resist.) 😉 Actually, one of the really cool things about \*Reconstructionist \* Judaism is that we’ve done away with that whole “we are the chosen people” business; we find it to be offensive and marginalizing. We believe that \*every \* human being is chosen to live ethically and to pursue justice. [QUOTE=Helen’s Eidolon] No problem, Li’l Pluck. I’m also an atheist/agnostic Jew, and although I don’t practice much, it’s an important part of my cultural heritage and who I am. There were some heated debates on the topic a few years back, but no one seems to have had problems with it since then. [/QUOTE] Word, sistah! 😃 What a pity that I didn’t stumble upon these boards sooner–I’m sure that was an interesting debate. And perhaps there has indeed been some evolution since then. [QUOTE=matt\_mcl] Not really, your post just reminded me of it. It’s just that often, we act towards others in a way that seems appropriate to us - i.e. what we imagine that we would like others to do for us - without regard to what the other would like. [/QUOTE] Well, I wasn’t speaking in terms of cultural absolutism, and certainly not in terms of imposing _my_ cultural standards on someone else (at least not willy-nilly, because this area can be rather nuanced). I was speaking in terms of general, goldren rule stuff, e.g., I won’t murder you, steal from you, lie to/about you, etc., because I don’t want you to do that kind of shit to me, right? ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/424 "2006-10-29T20:05:25Z")
[QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] Heh-heh-heh. But you _can_, my fellow Doper, you _can_. We have this interesting thing called “conversion,” and if you don’t mind learning how to read Hebrew (trust me, not as difficult to learn as one might think), learning about kashrut (the kosher laws)–whether or not you keep them is up to you, IMO–and learning about all of the other stuff that has the potential to cross a rabbi’s eyes, the wonder that is Judaism can indeed be yours, too. And hey, you’re a woman, so no ritual circumcision for _you_! 😃 IOW, ComeOnOverToTheDarkSideWeHaveChallah. (Sorry, COOTTDSWHCookies, I couldn’t resist.) 😉 [/QUOTE] I’m not Jewish, so I really don’t have a stake in it, but… one controversial belief is that a segment of the Jewish population is trying to pretend that being Jewish is _not_ an ethnic thing, so that when the pogroms start again, they might be left alone… Which reminds me of a controversial belief that _I_ hold, which is that there’s no such thing as a sincere conversion. One can believe in the god(s) one grows up with, or one can not believe in god. No third choice. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/425 "2006-10-29T20:28:44Z")
This is more of an aside to **BobLibDem** and **What Exit?** , but the Holocaust was not 6,000,000 dead. That’s the number of _Jews_ that were killed. Hitler also rounded up gypsies, homosexuals, Communists, homeless, retarded, deformed, etc. I think the total count for the concentration camps (not even war casualties) is something like 11,000,000 people. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/426 "2006-10-29T20:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sattua] I’m not Jewish, so I really don’t have a stake in it, but… one controversial belief is that a segment of the Jewish population is trying to pretend that being Jewish is _not_ an ethnic thing, so that when the pogroms start again, they might be left alone… [/QUOTE] Well, the fact is that being Jewish is _not_ an ethnic thing in and of itself. I believe that it is indeed, partly, an ethnic designation, but it’s much more than that, too. Unfortunately, there are some in the community who, due to ignorance or obstinance or racist ideology, don’t get this, and so they hold up to unfair, idiotic, and, far too often, racist scrutiny those of us who are not of European derivation. What these people make of the fact that my great-great-grandfather who (according to family lore) was a Jew of European descent, I don’t know. And, really, I don’t care. I’m just fortunate, I reckon, that my identity as a Jew doesn’t depend upon the opinions of other people. And yes, there is (often? sometimes?) the fear that converts to Judaism might turn coat in order to save their own skins. This fear is not unfounded, as there have been instances in Jewish history where this has occurred whenever Jews were targeted. For that matter, the same can be said of blacks who are light enough to pass for white. What does one do about this? I have no idea, but it’s not something that I lose sleep over b/c I don’t believe that it’s something that would be bound to happen all that often. This leads me to your next point… [QUOTE=Sattua] Which reminds me of a controversial belief that _I_ hold, which is that there’s no such thing as a sincere conversion. One can believe in the god(s) one grows up with, or one can not believe in god. No third choice. [/QUOTE] Or one can believe in entirely _different_ gods, right? At any rate, you certainly have the right to your opinion, and as long as you don’t try to make your opinion my reality, we’ll be okay. As an aside… Now that I’ve checked, I see that it’s actually ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies. :smack: So sorry about mangling your name. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/427 "2006-10-29T20:37:46Z")
I should clarify something. By “ethnic,” I mean ethnic/cultural, and certainly not ethnic in the sense of “racial,” since I believe that “race” is a manufactured construct that, ultimately, doesn’t mean shit. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/428 "2006-10-29T20:45:43Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] I believe that the biggest conceptual threat to the functioning of our democracy is the belief that all politicians are liars and are in it purely for personal aggrandizement. If we assume this from the get-go (as opposed to discerning it in individual cases), there’s no incentive to hold politicians accountable for anything (“Of course he lied; he’s a politician”) or work for change (“What’s the point of voting? They’ll just be liars anyway”). Actually, I think a lot of people in power encourage this view, because it promotes the status quo. [/QUOTE] I agree. I’ve actually known many many politicians mostly on the local level (in my opinion the most important level of government–at least in the United States.) Most of them are doing theirs jobs on top of full time employment privately and for very little compensation compared to how many hours they do it, most of them seem to do it out of a genuine desire that they can improve their communities and they think their political positions give them the power to do that. I think a troubling percentage of national politicians are very disinenguous, although to a large degree I think our political system and the media forces them to engage in double speak and etc. And there’s only 437 (I think) elected offices in the Federal government and well over 10,000 other elected officials in this country at the State and Local level (I actually think it’s in the 50,000s but am not positive.) ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/429 "2006-10-29T20:57:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Li’l Pluck** > That any black person who uses the word “nigger” (or any of its permutations) in mixed company (i.e., company where not everyone is black) is a shameless minstrel and **deserves, at the very least, the worst beat-down of their fucking lives.** There is such a thing as taking this whole reappropriating-the-symbols-of-our-oppressors stuff too far. Furthermore, **I believe that rappers/hip-hop “artists”/whatever the fuck they’re calling themselves these days need to be shot for incorporating that word into their lyrics so that other people can discover yet another way in which some black people are dip-shits.** The same goes for the record company executives who distribute this shit, thereby ensuring that people the world over can bear witness to this insanity. > [@](#): > > Oiginally posted by **Li’l Pluck** > **That any black person who uses that word as a term of endearment, especially if they’re referring to me, needs to be shot**. I may not care that much what words we use among ourselves, but I sure as hell will not cotton to being called anyone’s “nigger,” “niggah,” or any variation thereof. No. Not. Ever. (And be careful when you use that word around other black people, too, 'cause we don’t all feel the same way about it.) > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Li’l Pluck** > That any white person who asks, “Well, if black people can use that word, why can’t I?” \*\*deserves just as serious a beat-down. \*\* Why would you even want to use that word in the first place? And fuck how “down” you think you are, and fuck what your “keepin’ it real” homies say in your presence; you just need to stay away from that word. [QUOTE] And that, in a nutshell, is how I can be a Jew (a kippah-wearing one, at that) and an atheist. Judaism doesn’t demand that I believe in god. \*\*It does demand, however, that I orient myself towards ethical behavior and the repair of a broken world (which is broken precisely because people have oriented themselves away from ethical behavior).[/\*\*QUOTE] Interesting :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/430 "2006-10-29T21:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] And there’s only 437 (I think) elected offices in the Federal government … [/QUOTE] 1. You forgot the Senate. Possibly a good policy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/431 "2006-10-29T21:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] And atheist. How one reconciles that situation I do not know. [/QUOTE] Just FTR, I consider myself half-Jewish (ethnically) and not Jewish at all (religiously). ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/432 "2006-10-29T21:10:47Z")
None of that was hyperbole for effect, **pool** , not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/433 "2006-10-29T21:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Just FTR, I consider myself half-Jewish (ethnically) and not Jewish at all (religiously). [/QUOTE] Yeah, my question was not about ethnicity, rather religious practice. As I have learned from the posters here, it is possible to practice a religion that is based in monotheism without believing in a God. Very interesting. From the brief discussion here, it sounds very similar to wiccanism or other religions that assert balance between nature and an individual, or that emphasize a symbiotic nature between human actors. Out of curiosity, do most mainstream Jews accept that the atheist Jews are indeed Jews (as in religion, not ethnicity)? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/434 "2006-10-29T21:23:08Z")
According to traditional Jewish custom (Orthodox, Conservative, etc.), you are a Jew if your mother was Jewish, or if you underwent a formal conversion. Neither of those two options necessitates a belief in God. I can’t really speak to the practices of Reform Jews, but (clearly) Reconstructionist Jews don’t require it either. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/435 "2006-10-29T21:36:13Z")
[QUOTE=pool] > [@](#): > > And that, in a nutshell, is how I can be a Jew (a kippah-wearing one, at that) and an atheist. Judaism doesn’t demand that I believe in god. \*\*It does demand, however, that I orient myself towards ethical behavior and the repair of a broken world (which is broken precisely because people have oriented themselves away from ethical behavior).[/\*\*QUOTE] > > Interesting :rolleyes: Sigh. Y’know, **pool** , I would’ve been more than happy for you to engage me in serious conversation or debate about the apparent incongruity between my “I believe” post and my assertion that Judaism requires ethical behavior on my part. Apparently, however, you couldn’t be bothered to do that, and chose instead to embarrass me on this board. This _is_ what the rolleye smilie was meant to do, right? Well, next time, please try harder. Y’know, live Avis. Your snarkiness and (apparent) intellectual ennui notwithstanding, I’ll do you a solid and get the ball rolling on this one. Firstly, while Judaism demands ethical behavior, and while I strive towards that goal every day of my life, I am human, and I possess my share of human fallibilities. And I don’t think that anyone (well, anyone who wasn’t intent on ramming their foot up my ass–BTW, I hope you had a condom on that boot) would get the sense from looking at my two posts that I was claiming to be some kind of über-human who doesn’t fall short of the mark, because I do–just like every other human being. Secondly, it’s called “metaphor.” Please look it up. Or “sarcasm.” Take your pick. Wait. Perhaps I ought to explain further before you try to trap me again. It is true that I abhor the behavior that I mentioned in the parts of my “I believe” post that you highlighted. What is not true, however, is that I literally believe that people should be beat-down or shot for engaging in those behaviors. Strong social sanctions? Hell yeah, and I’m not ashamed of that. But literally kicking someone’s ass because they engage in minstrelsy? Look, I was a victim of violence many times over up into my teens, and I like to believe that I learned from that experience that kicking other people’s asses because we don’t agree with them is just…not…cool. (And, oh, the fact that I might, in those instances where I encounter the proscribed behavior, _want_ to give someone a beat-down, doesn’t mean that I \*should \*, or _would_, do so. Y’know, me trying to be a human being and not an animal, and all that jazz.) Anything else you need me to explain to you, please just ask. I assure you that you’ll find me to be most accommodating. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/436 "2006-10-29T22:03:11Z")
I don’t know if this is controversial or not, but **Li’l Pluck** is my new favorite Doper. Sorry **FormerMarineGuy.** ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/437 "2006-10-29T22:05:01Z")
Well I figured it would be better to let you get the ball rolling so to speak rather than for me to make an assumption about what you really meant. Though the OP is supposed to be about beliefs, sometimes it is difficult on a messageboard to discern whether someone is being completely serious or sarcastic. So explain to me what these strong social sanctions would be in lieu of being shot and beaten. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/438 "2006-10-29T22:14:20Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] - I believe that we should not necessarily do unto others as we would have them do unto us, as their tastes may be different. [QUOTE=Li’l Pluck] I don’t mean to be obtuse or anything like that–and I’m not even sure that your post was in response to my post (though I think it was)–but could you elaborate, please? [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] Well, if a guy enjoys being hung upside down from the ceiling, slathered in honey and whipped by a woman in a nun outfit, it might not be wise for him to follow the Golden Rule and do that unto others . . . ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/439 "2006-10-29T22:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] From the brief discussion here, it sounds very similar to wiccanism or other religions that assert balance between nature and an individual, or that emphasize a symbiotic nature between human actors. [/QUOTE] In my experience, there is room within Reconstructionist Judaism for all of this. [QUOTE=Lissa] Out of curiosity, do most mainstream Jews accept that the atheist Jews are indeed Jews (as in religion, not ethnicity)? [/QUOTE] As \*\*Helen’s Eidolon \*\* pointed out, one is accepted as Jewish if one’s mother was a Jew or if one undergoes a formal conversion. This is true of each of the four main branches of Judaism. The differences, though, are these: Reconstuctionist Judaism has accepted patrilineal descent. in addition to matrilineal descent, as proof of someone’s Jewishness (I believe that adoptive parents count, too, but there might be nuances that I don’t know about). I don’t know about Consevative Judaism, but because they’re most closely aligned with Orthodox Judaism in some fundamental respects, I would think that they go for matrilineal, and not patrilineal, descent. I’m not sure about Reform, either. I do know, however, that the Orthodoxy do not–and, in all likelihood, will never–go this route. (And just to be clear: in Recontstructionist Judaism, you can’t just show up and say that you’re a Jew. If you don’t have a parent who was/is a Jew, you’d still need to undergo formal conversion.) The other thing is this: The Orthodoxy will accept a convert only if the conversion was performed by Orthodox rabbis. Even though the conversion itself may be halachic (hewing strictly to Jewish law), if the conversion itself is performed by Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist rabbis, Orthodox Judaism won’t consider the convert a Jew. Sucks, if you ask me. And in Israel, where the Orthodoxy has control over all religious affairs (which sucks, too–big time), people who converted to Judaism under the auspices of a Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist rabbi aren’t considered Jewish. Holy. Fucking. Shit. (Orthodox Jews, for the most part, consider non-Orthodox Jews to be either bad Jews or not Jewish at all, so that explains a lot of this.) As to your question of “mainstream” Jews considering atheist Jews to be Jews, I guess it depends on who you ask. There is so much variance, though, within Jewish practice (not necessarily officially sanctioned, but certainly on an individual level), that I don’t know that many Jews would have a big issue with this. [QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Just FTR, I consider myself half-Jewish (ethnically) and not Jewish at all (religiously). [/QUOTE] Because such a big part of my struggle as a black Jew (and the stuggle of other Jews of color–Hispanic and Asian Jews, too) has been to get white Jews away from the myth that Jew=white, the half-Jewish thing raises some interesting issues for me. That being said, I get what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886/440 "2006-10-29T22:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, if a guy enjoys being hung upside down from the ceiling, slathered in honey and whipped by a woman in a nun outfit, it might not be wise for him to follow the Golden Rule and do that unto others . . . [/QUOTE] Well, hell, I might pay damn good money to see that! 😃 –Li’l Pluck, who doesn’t get out much anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/state-some-controversial-beliefs-that-you-have/377886.md?page=23)