# statement that wheat isn't a fruit is wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 19, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816 "2006-12-19T19:22:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ted\_Cochrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@Ted\_Cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ted_Cochrane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/1 "2006-12-19T19:22:51Z")
I hope that botanists have been writing regarding The Straight Dope column called “Sinfully delicious,” in which you claimed that wheat isn’t a fruit. This statement is incorrect. The word wheat can refer to any plant of the genus Triticum or to the grain produced by these plants. The fruit of a member of the Grass Family, to which Triticum belongs, is called a grain, or caryopsis, and this is the part used as a cereal food in the case of wheat, rye, rice, etc. People think of grain as the “seed” of a cereal grass, but that’s not right, either. By definition a grain is a fruit, the ripened ovary of a seed plant, in the case of grasses 1-seeded, non-opening, and usually dry and with the seed coat grown together with the ovary wall. Wheat is a grain, and grains are fruits; therefore, wheat is a fruit. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/2 "2006-12-19T19:43:10Z")
I assume your comment is in response to the recent column, [Was the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden an apple? (24-Nov-2006)](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/061124.html), where **Cecil** states: > [@](#): > > Early rabbis suggested the [forbidden fruit in Genesis] was… wheat, _khitah_ in Hebrew and thus a pun on _khet_, “sin” — a stretch, considering wheat isn’t a fruit and doesn’t grow on trees… If it’s any consolation, one of **Cecil** ’s Li’l Helpers agrees that wheat is a fruit. From the staff report [What’s the difference between fruits and vegetables?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mveggie.html), **Terey** says > [@](#): > > Okay, now the part which may surprise you. A grain is described as the dry fruit of a cereal grass, such as the _“seedlike fruits of the buckwheat and other plants, and the plants bearing such fruits.”_ So, grain is also a fruit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/3 "2006-12-19T21:36:27Z")
The botanical definition is irrelevant; the article is talking about whether The Hebrews considered it a fruit. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/4 "2006-12-20T03:42:42Z")
Since this is about a Staff Report, I’m moving it to the appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/5 "2006-12-20T05:40:56Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Since this is about a Staff Report, I’m moving it to the appropriate forum. [/QUOTE] Steal my thread, will you? I kept it because I thought it was more about Cecil’s column on the forbidden fruit than on Terey’s Staff Report on the definition of fruit. But if you’re jonesing for a thread, far be it from me to bogart it. Thread fiend. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/6 "2006-12-20T18:19:55Z")
The OP makes the common error of thinking that words can have only one meaning. The word “fruit” has several different senses, including a culinary sense as well as a botanical sense. (Which, by the way, leads to endless pointless discussions on whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable; in actual fact, it is both, since these are non-exclusive categories.) It is obvious from context that Cecil was using the word in the culinary sense; therefore the OP’s objection is nugatory. [QUOTE=Ted Cochrane] I hope that botanists have been writing regarding The Straight Dope column called “Sinfully delicious,” in which you claimed that wheat isn’t a fruit. This statement is incorrect. . . . By definition a grain is a fruit, the ripened ovary of a seed plant, in the case of grasses 1-seeded, non-opening, and usually dry and with the seed coat grown together with the ovary wall. Wheat is a grain, and grains are fruits; therefore, wheat is a fruit. [/QUOTE] While it is true that a grain is a fruit in the botanical sense, this is entirely irrelevant to the column. The ancient Hebrews were not botanists, and it should be clear that the word '“fruit” in Genesis was being used in the culinary sense. Hence Cecil’s characterization was appropriate. From Merriam-Webster > [@](#): > > Main Entry: fruit > 1 a : a product of plant growth (as grain, vegetables, or cotton) \ b (1) : **the usually edible reproductive body of a seed plant; especially : one having a sweet pulp associated with the seed \** (2) : a succulent plant part (as the petioles of a rhubarb plant) used chiefly in a dessert or sweet course c : a dish, quantity, or diet of fruits \ d : a product of fertilization in a plant with its modified envelopes or appendages; specifically : the ripened ovary of a seed plant and its contents e : the flavor or aroma of fresh fruit in mature wine Bolding mine. Those who wish to nit-pick Cecil would be well to consult a dictionary before doing so. [QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Since this is about a Staff Report, I’m moving it to the appropriate forum. [/QUOTE] I’m with **bibliophage** on this; I think the OP was commenting on Cecil’s column, not the Staff Report. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/7 "2006-12-21T14:30:44Z")
I bow to your wishes and transfer it back to Comments on Cecil’s Column. Sorry about that, now I read it more carefully, I agree with y’all and disagree with myself. I wonder what will happen when I transfer it back… could disrupt the entire trouser-leg of space/time. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/8 "2006-12-21T14:32:37Z")
Interesting… it seems to have put it back in it’s original slot, so there’s not a “transfer out/transfer in/transfer out” labyrinth. Live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/9 "2006-12-21T15:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] It is obvious from context that Cecil was using the word in the culinary sense; therefore the OP’s objection is nugatory. [/QUOTE] Great. That tells us a lot. So is a nougat a fruit or a vegetable? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/10 "2006-12-21T18:37:43Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Great. That tells us a lot. So is a nougat a fruit or a vegetable? [/QUOTE] [Nougat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nougat) usually contains nuts, which are fruits in the botanical sense, and sometimes fruits such as apricots, which are fruits in both the botanical and the culinary sense. Therefore, nougat would be mostly made of fruit in the botanical sense. In the culinary sense, however, nougat itself is a confection. If nougat were a vegetable, there wouldn’t be so much of a problem getting kids to eat them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/11 "2006-12-21T18:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Interesting… it seems to have put it back in it’s original slot, so there’s not a “transfer out/transfer in/transfer out” labyrinth. Live and learn. [/QUOTE] Good thing, too. Otherwise you might have created a warp in the space-time continuum. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/12 "2006-12-21T18:42:11Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] [Nougat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nougat) usually contains nuts, which are fruits in the botanical sense, and sometimes fruits such as apricots, which are fruits in both the botanical and the culinary sense. Therefore, nougat would be mostly made of fruit in the botanical sense. In the culinary sense, however, nougat itself is a confection. If nougat were a vegetable, there wouldn’t be so much of a problem getting kids to eat them. [/QUOTE] Blast. I really did not think there was a real answer to my smartass question. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/13 "2006-12-21T18:43:52Z")
Is now the time to mention that “kudos” is singular, not plural? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/14 "2006-12-21T19:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Is now the time to mention that “kudos” is singular, not plural? 😉 [/QUOTE] I dunno. Did I use it incorrectly? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/15 "2006-12-21T20:34:33Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Is now the time to mention that “kudos” is singular, not plural? 😉 [/QUOTE] Rather irrelevant, since \*\*Contrapuntal \*\* used it correctly, as in sense 2: From Merriam-Webster. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: ku·dos > Pronunciation: 'kü-"däs, 'kyü-, -"dOs > Function: noun > Etymology: Greek kydos > 1 : fame and renown resulting from an act or achievement : PRESTIGE > 2 : praise given for achievement But also see: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: ku·do > Pronunciation: 'kü-(“)dO, 'kyü- > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural kudos /-(”)dOz/ > Etymology: back-formation from kudos (taken as a plural) > 1 : AWARD, HONOR \ > 2 : COMPLIMENT, PRAISE \ > usage Some commentators hold that since kudos is a singular word it cannot be used as a plural and that the word kudo is impossible. But kudo does exist; it is simply one of the most recent words created by back-formation from another word misunderstood as a plural. Kudos was introduced into English in the 19th century; it was used in contexts where a reader unfamiliar with Greek could not be sure whether it was singular or plural. By the 1920s it began to appear as a plural, and about 25 years later kudo began to appear. It may have begun as a misunderstanding, but then so did cherry and pea. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/16 "2006-12-21T21:40:13Z")
Simply saying “kudos” as the singular Greek noun makes no sense: do you say “congratulation” to someone? I suspect he was using it as the corrupted pseudo-English noun kudo, -s. Which I refuse to accept, in much the same way I don’t say “ain’t” despite the fact that many do. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/17 "2006-12-21T22:10:27Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Simply saying “kudos” as the singular Greek noun makes no sense: do you say “congratulation” to someone? I suspect he was using it as the corrupted pseudo-English noun kudo, -s. Which I refuse to accept, in much the same way I don’t say “ain’t” despite the fact that many do. 😉 [/QUOTE] Welcome to the world of modern English, in which one can only say to your ‘Greek’ objection: c’est la vie. If you watch BBC television (the Greeks presumably would have to do this with the Romans :eek: ), you will see that sticking to original languages leaves you in zugswang. You can try to curry favour with the Oxford English Dictionary, but the likelihood of such a fianchetto is remote. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/18 "2006-12-21T22:35:03Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Simply saying “kudos” as the singular Greek noun makes no sense: do you say “congratulation” to someone? I suspect he was using it as the corrupted pseudo-English noun kudo, -s. Which I refuse to accept, in much the same way I don’t say “ain’t” despite the fact that many do. 😉 [/QUOTE] I suspect I was. What do you offer as the plural? Kudoses? Kudosi? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/19 "2006-12-21T23:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Simply saying “kudos” as the singular Greek noun makes no sense: do you say “congratulation” to someone? [/QUOTE] It’s not a “singular Greek Noun” or even a Greek word. It’s now an English word, whose roots are in the Greek _kydos_. When will dudes understand that English (as most languages) borrows many of it’s words from other tongues and after a suitable period, the word no longer is a foriegn word. Thus “kudos” is perfectly correct, much like “congratulations”. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816/20 "2006-12-22T03:28:29Z")
Sigh. This is the Straight Dope Message Board, you know? A repository of information of all sorts. Check the Archives from time to time: [Kudos](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkudos.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statement-that-wheat-isnt-a-fruit-is-wrong/384816.md?page=2)