# Statistically, blacks score poorly on IQ and IQ-proxy exams than whites, is black genetics to blame? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488 "2011-08-29T12:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/41 "2011-08-29T22:20:05Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I’m not at all one of the most interesting individuals in the world. > > I’m no Barack Obama, Martin Luther King Jr, Beyonce, George Washington Carver, Rosa Parks, Oprah Winfrey… Beyonce? What’s interesting about Beyonce? Well, besides her butt, I mean? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/42 "2011-08-29T22:20:28Z")
Black Americans actually have 17-18 % European ancestry on average, nationwide. In some metro areas the Euro percentage is higher on average, up to 25%. While black Americans on average don’t have much native American ancestry, many individuals do, Snoop Dog and Charles Barkley for example. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/43 "2011-08-29T22:25:49Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Beyonce? What’s interesting about Beyonce? Well, besides her butt, I mean? That pregnancy reveal on the VMAs was kind of interesting. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/44 "2011-08-29T23:39:20Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/13): > > I wouldn’t say that “no one” considers the possibility. > > It just isn’t something that is said in polite company in 2011. > > It is also unpopular with the SWPL crowd. I know you just joined just this month, but don’t mistake **us** for “polite company.” If you have something to tell us (that after 45 posts, **OscarGold** has failed) then, by all means, have at it. No need to beat around a bush. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/45 "2011-08-29T23:42:27Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/13): > > It is also unpopular with the SWPL crowd. I bet the SBPL crowd isn’t too fond of it either. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/46 "2011-08-29T23:43:34Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/13): > > I wouldn’t say that “no one” considers the possibility. > > It just isn’t something that is said in polite company in 2011. > > It is also unpopular with the SWPL crowd. To anyone else who’s never seen that acronym, after a google search it appears to be “Stuff White People Like”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/47 "2011-08-29T23:45:34Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Black Americans actually have 17-18 % European ancestry on average, nationwide. > > In some metro areas the Euro percentage is higher on average, up to 25%. > > While black Americans on average don’t have much native American ancestry, many individuals do, Snoop Dog and Charles Barkley for example. Not only that, but there are easily thousands (probably 100s of thousands) of Blacks who are at the extremes-- some with \<5% European ancestry and some with 75% or more European ancestry. If there is indeed a genetic component, it would not be too hard to look for a correlation between IQ and % African Ancestry. Still, you would have the difficulty of holding other variables constant (which is no easy task). ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/48 "2011-08-29T23:49:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To anyone else whose never seen that acronym, after a google search it appears to be “Stuff White People Like”. It’s also code-word for “liberal” by [internet nutjobs](http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22SWPL+crowd%22). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/49 "2011-08-30T04:06:01Z")
> [@OscarGold](#): > > It’s not something that can proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but it’s pretty convincing. That issue is debated in the [June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy, and Law](http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/). You probably need to read that to get a reasonable handle on the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/50 "2011-08-30T12:58:02Z")
[QUOTE=Volataire] Define your terms, you will permit me again to say, or we shall never understand one another. [/QUOTE] When come back, please define “black genetics”,“high achievers” and “most interesting individuals in the world”. And bring pie. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/51 "2011-08-30T15:11:14Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Beyonce? What’s interesting about Beyonce? Well, besides her butt, I mean? Ah, her breasts? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/52 "2011-08-30T15:26:29Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Am I the only one that is surprised that the OP doesn’t have an Aug 2011 join date? I was expecting this to be a zombie thread resurrected by someone with an Aug 2011 join date. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/53 "2011-08-30T15:51:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To anyone else who’s never seen that acronym, after a google search it appears to be “Stuff White People Like”. > [@orcenio](#): > > It’s also code-word for “liberal” by [internet nutjobs](http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22SWPL+crowd%22). I didn’t realize “stuff white people like” included black people. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/54 "2011-08-30T16:06:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t realize “stuff white people like” included black people. Good to know. Well, only if they’re properly cooked. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/55 "2011-08-30T16:16:41Z")
I often do wonder about the OP’s question in a different way though. I am of African descent (directly as evidenced by my increased melanin production) but not AA. And I often wondered if it was not the admixture of European ancestry that makes AAs less bright than other “black” people. This itself is an assumption from direct observation, I do not actually have data. This is the scenario I imagine. A person who is willing to enslave others and rape women is of lower IQ on average. Thus AAs have the European genetics of the most degenerate Europeans and this lowers their average IQ significantly. Add to that making it illegal for them to read, separating families, treating them subpar, and it actually surprises me that AAs are not all psychotic antisocial degenerates. The fact that they do not exhibit what is to be expected of people who have experienced such horror says to me that they actually must have some greater mental fortitude than the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/56 "2011-08-30T16:24:35Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > A person who is willing to enslave others and rape women is of lower IQ on average. Unfortunately, you can’t just make that assumption. > [@](#): > > it actually surprises me that AAs are not all psychotic antisocial degenerates. You don’t inherit your personality that way. That kind of thinking gave us a lot of pseudoscience over the years. ---
**Author:** ![strugglingChristian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@strugglingChristian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/strugglingChristian)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/57 "2011-08-30T16:49:39Z")
It’s not just a fly by night assumption, prisoners have been proven to have lower average IQs than the general pop. I’d like to see stats on rapists but I can’t find it broken down by crime. I am not saying they should have inherited psychotic personalities. If I was continuously raped and enslaved, i would be an unfit mother. After emancipation, i would continue to be an unfit mother, therefore my children would have issues. These issues would be compounded by Jim Crow laws and they would in turn be unfit parents. Therefore my great grandchildren and further down would have issues of distant parents compounded with societal maltreatment. We’ve all seen what happens to our closest cousins when only the sensation of a furry bedfellow vs an iron bar is studied. This is why it surprises me that AAs with all these evil struggles and burdens are not all violent psychotics. Not genetically compounded but environmentally. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/58 "2011-08-30T16:54:17Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > It’s not just a fly by night assumption, prisoners have been proven to have lower average IQs than the general pop. But the people who were involved in slavery weren’t criminals. From the standpoint of their time, they were in business. > [@](#): > > If I was continuously raped and enslaved, i would be an unfit mother. Not everyone who goes through something horrible becomes an unfit parent, though. It’s often incredible what people survive, but human beings can adjust to almost anything. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/59 "2011-08-30T17:22:05Z")
As offensive as the original OP’s post was, I think this is fascinating to discuss. I believe that those of us who have posted assertively that there is NO link between race and IQ are jumping to unfounded conclusions. After having done a little second-hand reading on the internet, it seems that there is substantial evidence that there is an established link between IQ scores and race. In at least one study, it was found that there was a strong correlation with brain size during natal development, and IQ scores later in life. According to this study, Asians had on average largest brains, followed by Whites, and then Blacks. The results of this study match up with the IQ gap that is observed when whites, asians, and blacks are given IQ tests later in life. It seems that there is relatively little doubt that genetics, race and IQ scores are all inexorably related. However, the questions become, is an IQ score indicative of “intelligence”? Are there certain cognitive tasks such as visual processes, auditory process, dexterity, etc that aren’t even considered when creating the IQ score but are very important higher brain functions nonetheless? What other assessments of “intelligence” might help us draw stronger conclusions? A strong scientific theory is backed up by multitudes of metrics, surveys, studies, etc, not just one type of test. Furthermore, what does the word “race” even mean? And if race is a real thing, as others have pointed out, by what metric do we measure it? As some posters have pointed out, skin color alone is a poor indicator of race, as evidenced, African people as a whole are more genetically diverse than all other races in the world. Just because there seems to be a correlative link between IQ scores and race does not mean that higher scoring races are more intelligent, or superior to any other race. And recognizing and analyzing this link is not racist. It’s just very subjective to individual opinion, as neither race nor intelligence can be easily scientifically quantified or defined. In the end, I think people everyone should embrace the genetic diversity of humanity. Some of us are more intelligent, some of us are better atheletes, some of us are better artists, and some of us are lazy slobs who won’t amount to much of anything. No matter how hard we try, we aren’t ever going to be able to overcome our individual genetic limitations (unless you become transhuman in a few decades). But we can certainly push them to the highest limits. That’s what it really means to be a good person… push yourself to be better than who you were yesterday, and a hell of a lot better than you were the year before. Stop trying to imply that certain people are better than others, and focus on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/60 "2011-08-30T17:24:10Z")
> [@strugglingChristian](#): > > Add to that making it illegal for them to read, separating families, treating them subpar, and it actually surprises me that AAs are not all psychotic antisocial degenerates. The fact that they do not exhibit what is to be expected of people who have experienced such horror says to me that they actually must have some greater mental fortitude than the rest of us. Interesting theory, but how do you know black people aren’t exhibiting what is expected of people who have experienced what they experienced? Maybe they are are reacting to slavery and segregation exactly like any other race would? > [@strugglingChristian](#): > > It’s not just a fly by night assumption, prisoners have been proven to have lower average IQs than the general pop. I’d like to see stats on rapists but I can’t find it broken down by crime. Prisoners aren’t a good data sample from which you can draw the conclusion that all rapists have low IQ scores. Prisoners, after all, are the ones that the police managed to catch. You can’t assume that they are the brightest criminals out there. The sad reality is that there are some really bright sociopaths out there that don’t have empathy and see no reason to behave morally other than to avoid punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=4)