# Statistically, blacks score poorly on IQ and IQ-proxy exams than whites, is black genetics to blame? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488 "2011-08-29T12:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/81 "2011-08-31T23:18:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And it’s obvious to anyone who watches world track and field events or the NFL or the NBA that there is also a correlation with skin color and some skills that serve one well in certain sports. This is why we have science: because a lot of things that are “obvious to anyone” are turn out to be not obvious, and in fact, completely wrong. If everything that seemed obvious was exactly true, we wouldn’t need scientific inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/82 "2011-08-31T23:30:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m always entertained by these threads. It’s obvious that skin color correlates with other traits, like hair texture and some facial features. And it’s obvious to anyone who watches world track and field events or the NFL or the NBA that there is also a correlation with skin color and some skills that serve one well in certain sports. But to entertain the notion that skin color also correlates with the brain and IQ—IMPOSSIBLE!!! :rolleyes: Agreed, during the 70s and 80s the Soviet Union was, after the US, the dominant force in International basketball and virtually all of their teams were made up of Lithuanians who compromised about 1% of the population of the Soviet Union. It’s pretty obvious there was something in their gene pool Lithuanians had that made them superior basketball players compared to Russians and others. No other explanation is possible. Questioning that would be like denying that Canadians make better hockey players than Americans due to genetics. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/83 "2011-08-31T23:38:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is why we have science: because a lot of things that are “obvious to anyone” are turn out to be not obvious, and in fact, completely wrong. If everything that seemed obvious was exactly true, we wouldn’t need scientific inquiry. Are you suggesting that they don’t look at correlations in this science you speak of? Feel free to do the “science” of examining the race results form world class sprints, and marathon results. Then feel free to examine the NFL rosters seeing if you see any correlation between race and position. And for the benefit of you and the poster that followed you, my point only goes to being entertained by those for whom the topic is too touchy for the correlation to be examined and they must attempt to quash it. So, thank you to you an the other fellow. I like free entertainment. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/84 "2011-08-31T23:42:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Feel free to do the “science” of examining the race results form world class sprints, and marathon results. You know this was discussed upthread, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/85 "2011-08-31T23:46:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Are you suggesting that they don’t look at correlations in this science you speak of? Feel free to do the “science” of examining the race results form world class sprints, and marathon results. Then feel free to examine the NFL rosters seeing if you see any correlation between race and position. And for the benefit of you and the poster that followed you, my point only goes to being entertained by those for whom the topic is too touchy for the correlation to be examined and they must attempt to quash it. So, thank you to you an the other fellow. I like free entertainment. > > Carry on. Ok, please explain why you think genetics makes Lithuanians better basketball players than Russians? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/86 "2011-08-31T23:55:21Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, please explain why you think genetics makes Lithuanians better basketball players than Russians? They have a greater expression of the Marciulionis protein. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/87 "2011-09-01T00:07:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They have a greater expression of the Marciulionis protein. I’m always amused by people pointing to elite level athletes in the NBA etc. as proof of one groups supposed genetic superiority. Elite level athletes get that way do to years and years of training and trying to suggest that because one group seems dominant in a particular sport is asinine. Magellan pointed to the NBA and the NFL but for sone reason ignored the NHL, Tennis, Lacrosse, and Golf. For that matter he made a big deal about “sprints” at “Track and Field Events” but ignored other portions, such as the discus, javelin, and shot put. Similarly he ignored the Olympic weightlifting and wrestling competions which have been dominated by whites. Does he think that genetics makes whites better wrestlers or better at throwing a discus or a javelin? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/88 "2011-09-01T00:08:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, please explain why you think genetics makes Lithuanians better basketball players than Russians? Please, if you’re going to state what I think, be right about it. Seems like the least you could do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/89 "2011-09-01T00:16:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please, if you’re going to state what I think, be right about it. Seems like the least you could do. Huh, you just insisted that genetics was the reason that African-Americans dominate the NBA. Since the Soviet basketball teams were even more dominated by Lithuanians than Russians, doesn’t that mean genetics made them better basketball players. Similarly you argue that genetics are why blacks dominate the “sprints” in Olympics. Doesn’t that also logically mean genetics must be why whites dominate the wrestling and hurling(discus, javelin, and shotput) events at the Olympics? Anyway, be a dear and explain why genetics makes Lithuanians better basketball players than Rusdians and whites better wrestlers than blacks. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/90 "2011-09-01T00:17:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Elite level athletes get that way do to years and years of training and trying to suggest that because one group seems dominant in a particular sport is asinine. Do you deny that the NFL has a disproportionate number of blacks at the speed positions—and by a huge margin? Based on what seems to be your argument, this is due to blacks working harder than whites. Is that correct? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Magellan pointed to the NBA and the NFL but for sone reason ignored the NHL, Tennis, Lacrosse, and Golf. And why, by golly, do you think I did that? (This should be good.) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For that matter he made a big deal about “sprints” at “Track and Field Events” but ignored other portions, such as the discus, javelin, and shot put. Again, why do you think I did that? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Similarly he ignored the Olympic weightlifting and wrestling competions which have been dominated by whites. Again, why? Here’s a hint: I should have included the World’s Strongest Man competitions. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/91 "2011-09-01T00:24:11Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh, you just insisted that genetics was the reason that African-Americans dominate the NBA. > > Since the Soviet basketball teams were even more dominated by Lithuanians than Russians, doesn’t that mean genetics made them better basketball players. No.\* > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Similarly you argue that genetics are why blacks dominate the “sprints” in Olympics. Doesn’t that also logically mean genetics must be why whites dominate the wrestling and hurling(discus, javelin, and shotput) events at the Olympics? Uh, no.\* > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway, be a dear and explain why genetics makes Lithuanians better basketball players than Rusdians and whites better wrestlers than blacks. Nah. How about this: I’ll stick to defending positions I actually hold. \*[I trust you’ll find this an invaluable aid in understanding my position.](http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Logic-Harry-Gensler/dp/0415226759) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/92 "2011-09-01T00:42:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No.\* > > Uh, no.\* > > Nah. How about this: I’ll stick to defending positions I actually hold. > \*[I trust you’ll find this an invaluable aid in understanding my position.](http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Logic-Harry-Gensler/dp/0415226759) Magellan, you earlier asserted that genetics were a reason the NBA is dominated by blacks. Are you taking that back? If not, your argument that Lithuanians don’t have genetic advantages compared to Russians when it comes to basketball is hypocritical and illogical. Please explain rather than merely making yourself look like an intellectual coward by saying “no” and “umm no” without further explanation. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/93 "2011-09-01T00:42:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Elite level athletes get that way do to years and years of training and trying to suggest that because one group seems dominant in a particular sport is asinine. I could’ve trained all I wanted, I would’ve never been an elite athlete. > [@](#): > > Magellan pointed to the NBA and the NFL but for sone reason ignored the NHL, Tennis, Lacrosse, and Golf. Basketball and football are very popular sports in America with multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues. The others are yuppie fringe sports played by well off white kids. If blacks ever got interested in them they’d dominate those too and whites would have to invent some other sports requiring even more expensive equipment. Actually, arguably the best golfer ever is black, so… > [@](#): > > For that matter he made a big deal about “sprints” at “Track and Field Events” but ignored other portions, such as the discus, javelin, and shot put. > > Similarly he ignored the Olympic weightlifting and wrestling competions which have been dominated by whites. The stereotype you’re arguing against is that blacks are fast/agile and whites are strong. Pointing out that whites excel at strength based sports doesn’t help. As for Lithuanians and basketball, I don’t know if they’re usually more athletic or taller than Russians. If so, that would be a reason. But it doesn’t really matter since blacks are better than both of them. Unless it’s [Sabonis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvydas_Sabonis). He was a freak and arguably the best white basketball player ever. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/94 "2011-09-01T00:45:54Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Basketball and football are very popular sports in America with multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues. Why is baseball being neglected in this discussion? > [@marshmallow](#): > > The others are yuppie fringe sports played by well off white kids. If blacks ever got interested in them Ah, how interesting- this almost sounds like an acknowledgement that there are cultural factors involved in who plays sports (even if it’s still stereotyped). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/95 "2011-09-01T00:47:16Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The stereotype you’re arguing against is that blacks are fast/agile and whites are strong. Pointing out that whites excel at strength based sports doesn’t help. > > As for Lithuanians and basketball, I don’t know if they’re usually more athletic or taller than Russians. If so, that would be a reason. But it doesn’t really matter since blacks are better than both of them. Unless it’s Sabonis, maybe. Are you actually arguing that you think whites do better at wrestling due to genetics? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/96 "2011-09-01T00:52:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why is baseball being neglected in this discussion? Or the UFC? Hmm… could it be that this would destroy the arguments of racists. I think it’s hysterical that the people on the other side think they’re the forces of logic and we’re the ones who don’t want to recognize the truth. By their logic genetics makes blacks better boxers but makes whites better wrestlers. Someone will have to explain that to me. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/97 "2011-09-01T00:56:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you actually arguing that you think whites do better at wrestling due to genetics? No. I’m just pointing out you’re doing a bad job of arguing against the sports stereotype. > [@Marley23](#): > > Ah, how interesting- this almost sounds like an acknowledgement that there are cultural factors involved in who plays sports (even if it’s still stereotyped). I don’t think I’ve ever seen even the most racist person deny cultural factors play into what different groups are interested in or can afford. > [@](#): > > Why is baseball being neglected in this discussion? Because it’s baseball. 😛 Seriously though, I don’t know much about baseball. What are the stereotypes like there? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/98 "2011-09-01T01:00:22Z")
It’s boring? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/99 "2011-09-01T01:01:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever seen even the most racist person deny cultural factors play into what different groups are interested in or can afford. So how do you separate the cultural factors and the alleged genetic ones? > [@](#): > > Seriously though, I don’t know much about baseball. What are the stereotypes like there? I don’t know what the stereotypes are. I do know that the proportion of black players in the MLB has been declining for a long time and that a lot of the roster spots that used to go to black player are now going to Latin American and Caribbean players. And if you think black guys are the best athletes, how do you account for increased presence of Asian ballplayers? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/100 "2011-09-01T01:09:38Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I could’ve trained all I wanted, I would’ve never been an elite athlete. Cite! Seriously, I’ve often seen people claim this, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone actually support it with anything. Obviously if you were born with no limbs or something, what you say might be true. But assuming you are generally healthy with no major congenital defects, why exactly do you believe that you could never have become an elite athlete if you had trained as hard as the elite athletes? > [@](#): > > Basketball and football are very popular sports in America with multi-billion dollar professional sports leagues. As are golf, hockey, tennis and baseball. Is there some reason you excluded those sports? > [@](#): > > The others are yuppie fringe sports played by well off white kids. If blacks ever got interested in them they’d dominate those too… So you are saying that an important factor in sporting success is whether a group is interested in playing it? That the reason Blacks don;t dominate golf is because most Blacks aren’t interested in playing golf. Is that correct? BTW, you can’t possibly call golf a fringe sport, It has more players in the US than football. > [@](#): > > Actually, arguably the best golfer ever is black, so… And Venus Willians doesn’t look too white. Hmm. I wonder where this is going to lead. > [@](#): > > The stereotype you’re arguing against is that blacks are fast/agile and whites are strong. Pointing out that whites excel at strength based sports doesn’t help. So gymnastics and fencing are not sports that requires speed and agility? Whereas boxing clearly does not require strength? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=6)