# Statistically, blacks score poorly on IQ and IQ-proxy exams than whites, is black genetics to blame? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488 "2011-08-29T12:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/161 "2011-09-02T05:09:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Do you actually have any idea what percent of Carl Lewis’s ancestry is African, European, or North American? > > I have never seen his family tree and I doubt that you have, either. Given that there is a very large admixture of European and North American blood/DNA in the group (self-)identified as black or African American, unless you have an actual family tree, I see no reason to accept your unsupported assertion that non-West African ancestry is a “tiny percentage” of the ancestry of any given sprinter who was born in the U.S. I’m basing that on estimates of average european ancestry in african-americans. \*\*btw. Please explain why the 92% of the world population without West African ancestry have failed to come up more than a couple of sprinters who can run the 100 metres in under 10 seconds. \*\*If you are right that the prevalence of genes across populations doesn’t matter then how do you explain that? See Entine’s calculation on the probability in relation to the dominance of 100 metre Olympic finals by people with West African ancestry. Also see the data from the Slate article showing that **genes linked to running fast do occur in different frequencies across racial groups**. Note, those are only the genes they’ve identified to date. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/162 "2011-09-02T05:18:25Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Heh, yeah a tiny percentage of their ancestry relative to the West African portion. How do you know that it’s “a tiny percentage of their ancestry relative to the West African portion”? If that were the case African-Americans wouldn’t be so much more light-skinned than most West Africans. > [@](#): > > Carl Lewis did run the 100 metres under 10 seconds on several occasions. The 1988 Olympics for instance. Whoosh! You idiotically pointed to “the lack of Europeans and Asians” who ran 100 Metres in under 10 seconds. Carl Lewis is of European descent. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/163 "2011-09-02T05:23:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How do you know that it’s “a tiny percentage of their ancestry relative to the West African portion”? > > If that were the case African-Americans wouldn’t be so much more light-skinned than most West Africans. > > You idiotically pointed to “the lack of Europeans and Asians” who ran 100 Metres in under 10 seconds. > > Carl Lewis is of European descent. 1. As I explained above, that is based on admixture studies showing an average of around 20% [european ancestry in African Americans](http://genomebiology.com/2009/10/12/R141). 2. [Carl Lewis is of West African descent](http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/JT_NaturalSelections.htm). He may also have european ancestry - I’ll take your word on that. But is the West African ancestry more significant in terms of his athletic success? Let’s have a look at whether there are any [common denominators amongst the top sprinters](http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=9IHqo7Z6yqoC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=Carl+Lewis+West+African+jon+entine&source=bl&ots=4QeGkrNa3r&sig=-RjHt_yyKi2W02Hj1mttYHtZP1I&hl=en&ei=7GhgTpubO4zMmAXJs8yHDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)? 3. Given you think that the prevalence of genes is equally distributed across populations why have 92% of the world population failed to come up with more than a couple of people able to run the 100 metres in under 10 seconds? One of those was part Aboriginal. Logically, if it doesn’t matter whether a person has west african, asian or european ancestry then why is this? See Entine’s calculation on the [astonishingly long odds against this](http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=9IHqo7Z6yqoC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=Carl+Lewis+West+African+jon+entine&source=bl&ots=4QeGkrNa3r&sig=-RjHt_yyKi2W02Hj1mttYHtZP1I&hl=en&ei=7GhgTpubO4zMmAXJs8yHDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/164 "2011-09-02T05:23:40Z")
West Africans might be genetically better sprinters, but they’re not a race. Kenyans might be genetically superior distance runners, but they’re not a race either. What exactly is the point of this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/165 "2011-09-02T05:30:45Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > West Africans might be genetically better sprinters, but they’re not a race. Kenyans might be genetically superior distance runners, but they’re not a race either. What exactly is the point of this discussion? That natural selection can favour different traits in different environments. There are some who think that populations are basically interchangeable. That there are no differences in the prevalence of certain genes, or certain traits. Of course the example of athletics shows actually there are differences due to different evolutionary backgrounds. People resist this because they might then have to concede the same for some mental traits. But that is [quite plausible too](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html), in fact it would be a miracle if that weren’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/166 "2011-09-02T05:42:32Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > That natural selection can favour different traits in different environments. What a revelation! I think you might be able to formulate a general theory to explain biological diversity based on this idea! I would be pretty surprised if you couldn’t identify populations with genetically-based tendencies for above or below average intelligence, but since there aren’t really any environments where intelligence isn’t strongly selected for I would expect these populations to be isolated (geographically or culturally) small groups where the divergence is smallish and evolutionarily recent. Chances of significant differences between large groups are very low due to the amount of fucking around people do. In short, you can’t even come up with a simple athletic trait which varies by race (as opposed to a much smaller population), and yet you still give credence to racial IQ theories. It’s laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/167 "2011-09-02T05:54:52Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > What a revelation! I think you might be able to formulate a general theory to explain biological diversity based on this idea! > > I would be pretty surprised if you couldn’t identify populations with genetically-based tendencies for above or below average intelligence, but since there aren’t really any environments where intelligence isn’t strongly selected for I would expect these populations to be isolated (geographically or culturally) small groups where the divergence is smallish and evolutionarily recent. Chances of significant differences between large groups are very low due to the amount of fucking around people do. > > In short, you can’t even come up with a simple athletic trait which varies by race (as opposed to a much smaller population), and yet you still give credence to racial IQ theories. It’s laughable. Credence to racial iq theories? What, like [Francis Crick](http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/SC/B/B/N/M/) & [James Watson](http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123)? Members of the [Behavioural Genetics Association, Cognitive Science Society, American Psychology Association](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IQ_Controversy,_the_Media_and_Public_Policy_(book))? Were you aware that far fewer of those polled consider group differences in average IQ to be purely environmental compared to due to environmental and genetic variation? As for your comment that intelligence is selected for equally across environments, that is a bit of a stretch. Do you think the same traits would be selected for in year round tropical agricultural societies, where men can do less of the work and there is less demand for paternal provisioning, compared to those with harsher winters, [stable property rights, and greater population density](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-darwinism-21st-century-edition.html)? There are some basic physical differences you may not be aware of. Intelligence correlates with brain size (about .40 on MRI - www.yale.edu/scan/GT\_2004\_NRN.pdf). Average brain size differs across populations ([International Journal of Neuroscience, 119:691–731, 2009]([http://psychology](http://psychology). uwo.ca /faculty/rushtonpdfs/2009%20IJN. pdf)). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/168 "2011-09-02T06:40:30Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > At least you’re now reading other peoples posts 🙂 Let me explain the point using an example of height (another heritable, quantitative trait). There is significant overlap between different population distributions. That is, Swedes might be taller than Vietnamese on average, but the range of heights within each group is larger than the difference in the averages. Similarly, there is significant overlap between male and female heights. Much greater than the average difference. > > Nevertheless, at the tails of the distribution one would find very large discrepancies, even with a small average difference. For instance, if you were looking at people above 6 ft tall a far greater proportion would be men than women. Similarly a far greater proportion would be Swedes than Vietnamese. > > Take that in terms of intelligence, which has similar heritability to height. There is considerable overlap between the black and european populations. But there is a consistent average difference of about [1 standard deviation](https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/disparate-impact-realism-1.pdf). Accordingly, above certain levels the proportion you’ll find from each population is significantly different. > > This point, and the social implications, is explained in greater detail by Linda Gottfredson [here](http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2004socialconsequences.pdf). No, Chen. The test score gap is an American phenomenon. It’s not global. It’s not consistent across all US samples either. The real gap varies between 11 points and 8 points depending on the locale and other variables. So it’s never a full standard deviation difference. The gap varies from 3/4 of a standard deviation to half a std., and it’s not genetic. There’s also no such thing as a uniform global black population. When you start with imaginary categories, gather imaginary data, you get imaginary results. Gottfredson isn’t a geneticist, and knows very little about genetics. And so on. Still wrong, Chen. Still clueless. Still hoping that some scientific breakthrough will save your thoroughly discredited theories from the dunghill of pseudo-scientific garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/169 "2011-09-02T06:44:50Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Heh, yeah a tiny percentage of their ancestry relative to the West African portion. Again, if genes were evenly distributed it would be reasonable to anticipate more of the 92% of the population who aren’t of west african descent to have cracked the 100 metres in under 10 seconds. It’s a glamour event, there are huge incentives to do well in it. > > Carl Lewis did run the 100 metres under 10 seconds on several occasions. The 1988 Olympics for instance. No, not a tiny percentage. About 20 per cent on average. Again, facts. It’s just weird that you consistently dive into these arguments when you’re willfully ignorant of basic knowledge in the subject matter. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/170 "2011-09-02T07:04:33Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The others are yuppie fringe sports played by well off white kids. If blacks ever got interested in them they’d dominate those too and whites would have to invent some other sports requiring even more expensive equipment. Actually, arguably the best golfer ever is black, so… I’m a little late to the party, but you may need to consider that the one-drop rule isn’t very useful for racial studies. (N.B. Woods is only a quarter AA —ergo, \*less \*than a quarter of African ancestry.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/171 "2011-09-02T08:14:43Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > I’m basing that on estimates of average european ancestry in african-americans. Which is what? And where is that estimate published? > [@Chen019](#): > > \*\*btw. Please explain why the 92% of the world population without West African ancestry have failed to come up more than a couple of sprinters who can run the 100 metres in under 10 seconds. \*\*If you are right that the prevalence of genes across populations doesn’t matter then how do you explain that? Why? I have made no such asertion and see no reason to support a position I do not hold. I recognize that different populations are liable to have different characteristics. I simply deny your claim that a trait particular to one population (say, that of West Africa), can be generalized to a much larger region, such as all of Africa or all of sub-Saharan Africa. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/172 "2011-09-02T08:26:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which is what? And where is that estimate published? Withdrawn. I hit “Submit” after taking a break from the puter and had not seen that you had provided a response to this question during my break. The rest of my post stands. I have no intention of defending a straw man claim of my position. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/173 "2011-09-02T23:06:50Z")
> [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > Dude, you mentioned three people over a time span of sixty years, twelve Olympics and dozens is not hundreds of Track and Field events. The USA population is 28x that of Cuba, so as matter of simple arithmetical proportion the USA should win 28x as many medals. In the last 12 Olympics Cuba has won 6 of a possible 120 medals in the 100-200-400m dash events, including relays. Were the US to have won as many medals in proportion to its size as Cuba it would have won _all 120 medals_ in the dashes. the actual US total is 56 medals: pretty darn good, but much fewer relative to its population than Cuba. [Olympic Games Results](http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/countries/) > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > If we use American standards regarding who is and isn’t black then about two thirds of all Cubans are black, though this is obviously not true of Cuban-Americans. I do not believe there is such as thing as an American “standard”. According to the Wiki article Cuba is now ~65-25-10 White-mixed-Black. > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > Obviously, most people in Cuba don’t feel this way since they only consider people to be black if they are of 100% African ancestry were we to use the Cuban understanding of who is and isn’t black then this whole thread is even more moronic then now since only a small number of African-Americans would be considered black in Cuba, or for that matter, Brazil, South Africa, Jamaica or just about any country where most people are of African descent. The only thing that is moronic is to fail to recognize the obvious: No matter what the system (Capitalist/Communist) economic status (rich/poor) size (many people, few people) in any country with more than a handful of people of primarily African descent, Blacks will dominate sprint completion. > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > To put it another way, using American standards there are about 30 million blacks in America and about 7 million blacks in Cuba yet Cubans have produce far, far fewer high quality sprinters than have been produced in America. Make that 4-5 million Cuban Blacks,and It is comparison of US _whites_ to Cuban blacks which provides the relevant evidence. There are about over 70x more American Whites than Cuban Blacks, yet Cuban Blacks have won twice as many sprint medals > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > Until rather recently, Jamaica wasn’t producing that many high class sprinters and despite the fact that more people of 100% or close to 100% African ancestry live in the Caribbean countries, they haven’t produced remotely as many high quality sprinters as have been produced by the African-American community. Nonsense. In the last century Jamaican men and women won Olympic sprint medals as follows: 1948 (2 medalists-2 medals) 1952 (2 medalists-3 medals) plus 1 relay medal 1968 (1 medalist-1 medal) 1972 (1-1) 1976 (1-2 ) 1980 (2-2) 1984 (1-2) plus 1 relay medal 1988 (1-1) plus 1 relay medal 1992 (2-3) 1996 (1-2) plus 2 relay medals And be informed that Jamaica even now has only about ~2.8 million people. > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > Yes, and they’ve managed to win vastly more medals and produce vastly more high quality sprinters than West African and Caribbean countries have. Addressed but it occurs to me to add that if one were to combine the number of medals won by all the tropical insular American countries then the proportional results would be even less favorable to the US than the comparison with Cuba. > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > Moreover, if African genetics were so key in producing great sprinters, the African-American community would be a distinct disadvantage compared to other countries since their “genetic purity” has been diluted by so many racially inferior whites raping black women and ensuring that only a tiny minority of African-American are “true tribesmen”. > > It’s pretty obvious that the African-American community produces so many elite athletes due to cultural reasons not genetic factors. > > Compared to the African-American community, which, as mentioned has vastly fewer “true tribesmen” and most of who’s members have been polluted by racially inferior whites, they’ve done little being far more racially pure. > > What curious about that is that most people when noticing that Africans who vastly, vastly outnumber African-Americans(even if one counts all of the racially impure African-Americans) haven’t produced remotely as many high-quality sprinters, would think this is strong evidence that “blacks” don’t have “genes” that make them superior sprinters. There several possible approaches to this issue. For example, West Africans may simply come to produce the expected number of superior sprinters which for reasons unknown they could be but are not producing now. On the other hand, natural selection during the terrible ordeal of trans-Atlantic slave transport may have produced an Afro-American population of much greater physical strength than the average of the pool they were drawn from, with sprinting ability being a rider to that. Regardless, native West African underrepresentation does nothing to explain African overrepresentation elsewhere. > [@Ibn Waraq](#): > > And yet virtually every one of the 500-plus fastest times is held by a man of European descent. I do not think anyone questions the great predominance of the African ancestral component over the European, especially in Jamaica where ~90% of the population is thought to be of fully African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/174 "2011-09-03T21:43:26Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > No, Chen. The test score gap is an American phenomenon. It’s not global. It’s not consistent across all US samples either. The real gap varies between 11 points and 8 points depending on the locale and other variables. So it’s never a full standard deviation difference. The gap varies from 3/4 of a standard deviation to half a std., and it’s not genetic. If you’re going to claim this you need to show a citation. For instance, the meta-analysis by Philip Roth showed a [1.1 standard deviation average difference](http://tinyurl.com/43l82gt). Group differences around the world are even [larger](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/11/standard-deviations-around-world.html). As I noted above, far more members [Members of the Behavioural Genetics Association, Cognitive Science Society, American Psychology Association consider black - white average IQ differences to be due to environmental and genetic variation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IQ_Controversy,_the_Media_and_Public_Policy_(book)), than environmental variation alone. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Chuck11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck11)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/175 "2011-09-03T22:30:39Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > No, Chen. The test score gap is an American phenomenon…There’s also no such thing as a uniform global black population. When you start with imaginary categories, gather imaginary data, you get imaginary results. Belowjob2.0 has a point. There is no “Black-White” gap. There are various gaps. In the US, the average (adult) African/European American gap is about 1.1 SD. In the UK, the average adult African/European British gap varies extensively depending on which African population one is referring to. When talking about IQ (or other) differences, one needs to specify the populations under discussion. > [@](#): > > The real gap varies between 11 points and 8 points depending on the locale and other variables. So it’s never a full standard deviation difference. The gap varies from 3/4 of a standard deviation to half a std. The average adult gap across the whole US is \>1 SD (Flynn and Dickens, 2006). Regional (and global) variations can be explained both genetically (e.g. immigration patters) and environmentally. > [@](#): > > Still wrong, Chen. Still clueless. Still hoping that some scientific breakthrough will save your thoroughly discredited theories from the dunghill of pseudo-scientific garbage. I would be game for debating the issue, though I would change the question to “Is the heritability of the adult self and other identified African-American/European-American IQ gap \> .3?” or “Do West-Southern-Central Africans and West Eurasians as characterized by Trishkoff, et al (2010) in “The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans” have the same average genotypic IQ?” ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/176 "2011-09-03T22:37:05Z")
Chen, I’m not doing your homework for you. You have seen, or certainly should have seen standardized test data from the past few years which show a gap in some states of half a standard deviation. Either you’re ignorant of a subject which you claim deep knowledge , or you’re deliberately ingoring data which contradict your thesis. The test score gap isn’t global. The studies you reference attempt to conflate genetically distinct populations into one population because it suits their ideological biases. It’s not science. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/177 "2011-09-03T22:58:37Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Chen, I’m not doing your homework for you. You have seen, or certainly should have seen standardized test data from the past few years which show a gap in some states of half a standard deviation. Either you’re ignorant of a subject which you claim deep knowledge , or you’re deliberately ingoring data which contradict your thesis. > > The test score gap isn’t global. The studies you reference attempt to conflate genetically distinct populations into one population because it suits their ideological biases. It’s not science. 1. I provided a published[meta analysis from 2001 showing a 1.1 standard deviation differenc](http://pcbfaculty.ou.edu/classfiles/MGT%206983%20-%20Methods%20&%20Design/Roth%20et%20al%20PP%20%2701.pdf)e. The onus is on you to provide alternative evidence. The fact that you cannot, I would say is rather telling. 2. Again, if you look at scores from racial populations [around the world](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/02/world-of-difference-richard-lynn-maps.php) they show similar differences to those in the US. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/178 "2011-09-03T22:59:12Z")
One thing that always amazes me in these threads is how people insist that Blacks excel at certain sports because they are of African decent. But “Black” in the US means mixed decent. Let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that African Americans skew more towards certain athletic abilities than European Americans do. Maybe it’s precisely because they are of mixed ancestry that they do so, not because the are mostly of African ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/179 "2011-09-03T23:16:18Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. Again, if you look at scores from racial populations [around the world](http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/02/world-of-difference-richard-lynn-maps.php) they show similar differences to those in the US. This is the same Richard Lynn who wrote a book hyping his claims for IQ and national wealth, basing many of his “estimates” for any given nation’s IQ on samples as odd as a dozen schoolboys, tests administered under unclear circumstances to limited size groups dozens of years ago, or by “averaging” claimed IQ’s for two countries and then assigning that number to countries for which there was no data that lay between them. Supporting one’s beliefs with the output of charlatans and liars does nothing to actually address the issue. Given the rubbish Lynn has used to identify IQ in so many nations, there is no reason to expect that his data is any better the next time around, particularly when his “new” data is probably based on the results he has already fraudulently published. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488/180 "2011-09-03T23:21:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is the same Richard Lynn who wrote a book hyping his claims for IQ and national wealth, basing many of his “estimates” for any given nation’s IQ on samples as odd as a dozen schoolboys, tests administered under unclear circumstances to limited size groups dozens of years ago, or by “averaging” claimed IQ’s for two countries and then assigning that number to countries for which there was no data that lay between them. > > Supporting one’s beliefs with the output of charlatans and liars does nothing to actually address the issue. Given the rubbish Lynn has used to identify IQ in so many nations, there is no reason to expect that his data is any better the next time around, particularly when his “new” data is probably based on the results he has already fraudulently published. 1. The PISA & TIMMS data is consistent with Lynn’s findings (which themselves are based on hundred’s of researchers around the world). 2. His national IQ data is also now being used increasingly by [economists](http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/diffuse) for predicting [macroeconomic outcomes](http://ideas.repec.org/a/kap/jecgro/v11y2006i1p71-93.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statistically-blacks-score-poorly-on-iq-and-iq-proxy-exams-than-whites-is-black-genetics-to-blame/594488.md?page=10)