# Statue insults women veterans , senator says **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 10, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574 "2004-06-10T01:13:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/1 "2004-06-10T01:13:43Z")
Granted, it doesn’t show a female grunt blasting away on a 50 caliber machine gun, but IMO, it’s hardly a “Victoria’s Secret” type statue. [Statue insults women, senator says](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=255615&category=CAPITOL&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=6/9/2004) > [@](#): > > Joined by two female Marine Corps veterans, Hoffmann stood before the memorial just west of the State Museum on Madison Avenue and said it looks “like an ad for Victoria’s Secret and does a grave disservice to women who have served in past wars and those women who are risking their lives today.” > > At issue is a 9-foot statue, designed by former Times Union cartoonist Hy Rosen, that is the central focus of the memorial. State officials say she is meant to depict Lady Liberty. The woman is wearing a draped dress and sandals. Her arms arch upward and one hand holds the New York state flag. The inscription beneath her feet reads: “Pride. Courage. Honor.” [Picture of Statue](http://www.timesunion.com/shared/graphics/newsdb/040609memorial.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/2 "2004-06-10T01:43:32Z")
How would a statue of Kate Jackson in _Charlie’s Angels_ insult veterans? ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/3 "2004-06-10T01:48:54Z")
That is one UGLY statue. It loooks like it should be at the national cheerleader memorial. ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/4 "2004-06-10T01:57:19Z")
While the figure is a fairly conventional personification of Liberty, her dress isn’t provocative at all, and certainly not in a “Victoria’s Secret” kind of way. The senator seems to want a more butch figure, dressed in combat fatigues. Personally, I prefer the more generic type that they’ve chosen, which matches with the original intention of commemorating women’s service throughout the history of the U.S. and not only one time period. Moreover, the monument includes panels with more historically-specific scenes: > [@](#): > > The women said they have no problem with the smaller panels that flank Lady Liberty. One shows a Revolutionary-War era scene of women standing in the field, wearing dresses and loading muskets. The other is a more modern montage that centers around a woman wearing fatigues and holding a machine gun. Within this context, the central figure doesn’t represent any particular woman so much as the spirit of women’s wartime sacrifices and contributions. Besides, the artist could have followed Delacroix’s example in depicting [Lady Liberty](http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/delacroix/liberte/) with both the nudity _and_ specific historical references (revolutionary “Phrygian” cap and musket). But I doubt that would have pleased everyone, either. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/5 "2004-06-10T02:05:04Z")
That’s a local story around here. The problem is one I’ve railed against from time to time here on the SDMB: people are just too goddamn literal. It’s a metaphor, folks – look it up. :mad: However, if they want to change it, then can. Only they’ll have to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Call\_me\_Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Call\_me\_Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Call_me_Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/6 "2004-06-10T02:59:00Z")
IANAW (I am not a woman), but I don’t think the statue is insulting to women. Just my humble opinion, though… ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/7 "2004-06-10T03:55:19Z")
She needs a dog leash and a ‘thumbs up’. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/8 "2004-06-10T11:45:03Z")
Well, _I’m_ a woman AND a veteran and it didn’t offend _me_. It isn’t supposed to be a statue of a soldier – it’s supposed to be a statue of Lady Liberty. I think it’s a good idea to use a generic figure as the centerpiece. Otherwise, which uniform should the statue be portrayed as wearing? I never wore cammies, for instance – I was a sailor. The statue isn’t my favorite portrayal of Lady Liberty – this one seemed a little skinny and blow-dried, if you ask me – but offensive? Only to the professionally offended. And I suspect the senator has never _seen_ a Victoria’s Secret ad. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/9 "2004-06-10T12:11:45Z")
You think that’s something, take a look at Queen Charlotte. [http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category\_level\_id=321&content\_id=1409](http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category_level_id=321&content_id=1409) This unfortunate statue is in front of Charlotte-Douglas International Airport. I’m not sure if she’s sitting on an imaginary toilet or just got hit in the gut by a baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/10 "2004-06-10T12:19:54Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You think that’s something, take a look at Queen Charlotte. > > [http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category\_level\_id=321&content\_id=1409](http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category_level_id=321&content_id=1409) > > This unfortunate statue is in front of Charlotte-Douglas International Airport. I’m not sure if she’s sitting on an imaginary toilet or just got hit in the gut by a baseball bat. If you can imagine a broomstick and a hat added to that statue, she looks just like the Wicked Witch of the West. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/11 "2004-06-10T12:53:41Z")
> [@Jess](#): > > Well, _I’m_ a woman AND a veteran and it didn’t offend _me_. It isn’t supposed to be a statue of a soldier – it’s supposed to be a statue of Lady Liberty. I think it’s a good idea to use a generic figure as the centerpiece. Otherwise, which uniform should the statue be portrayed as wearing? I never wore cammies, for instance – I was a sailor. The statue isn’t my favorite portrayal of Lady Liberty – this one seemed a little skinny and blow-dried, if you ask me – but offensive? Only to the professionally offended. And I suspect the senator has never _seen_ a Victoria’s Secret ad. IANAW but I’m with you. Even insofar as this Lady Liberty being a wee bit “girly”… but then again maybe we’re just too used to seeing renditions of Liberty (or Columbia, or even Marianne Liberté) based on 19th-century aesthetics. Some people need to find worthy causes to protest. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/12 "2004-06-10T13:17:08Z")
And I thought '70s-style feminism was dead… ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/13 "2004-06-10T13:34:42Z")
I don’t understanding what they’re complaining about. I guess I picture “Lady Liberty” in a sort-of neo-classical sense—'ya know, inspired by Greek or Roman sculpture—so this whole “throw on the cammies” thing is pretty lame. Maybe she could be wearing a sailor cap, a marine’s shirt, a desk jockey’s pants, and sterile surgical overshoes, all while carrying a rifle, a mop, and a stethescope. That’d be cool. As far as the statue itself goes, it looks like the designer _was_ going for the neo-classical look, but bailed out when it came to the breast area and had to throw in the School Marm Motif to desexualize it. As for the Waif qua Lady Liberty, imagine how much complaining we’d hear if she had breasts and hips! ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/14 "2004-06-10T14:14:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You think that’s something, take a look at Queen Charlotte. > > [http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category\_level\_id=321&content\_id=1409](http://www.charlottechamber.com/content.cfm?category_level_id=321&content_id=1409) > > This unfortunate statue is in front of Charlotte-Douglas International Airport. I’m not sure if she’s sitting on an imaginary toilet or just got hit in the gut by a baseball bat. I think she looks kind of like she’s doing a Trinity style kick, perpetually frozen in bullet time. No one messes with the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/15 "2004-06-10T15:23:14Z")
> [@Jess](#): > > …this one seemed a little skinny and blow-dried, if you ask me – but offensive? Only to the professionally offended. And I suspect the senator has never _seen_ a Victoria’s Secret ad. Ha. Exactly what I was thinking. They’d never let her into a Vickie’s ad. She’d have to lose that bad hairdo and about 30 pounds, and get a boob job at the very least. If the statue was supposed to be a commemoration of women’s service in wartime, then I think her attire is appropriate. To have her in fatigues and holding a gun does ignore the crucial non-battlefield contributions that women have made over the centuries. Having her in a generic simple old-fashioned dress does a better job of encompassing the range of women’s wartime activities. I could see it being done as 3 Lady Liberties–one in modern combat dress, one in a classic nurse uniform, and one in a simple revolutionary-era dress. But given that it depicted just one wartime woman, it was a decent choice. But damn, it’s an ugly statue. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/16 "2004-06-10T15:41:52Z")
> [@Green Bean](#): > > Ha. Exactly what I was thinking. They’d never let her into a Vickie’s ad. She’d have to lose that bad hairdo and about 30 pounds, and get a boob job at the very least. > > If the statue was supposed to be a commemoration of women’s service in wartime, then I think her attire is appropriate. To have her in fatigues and holding a gun does ignore the crucial non-battlefield contributions that women have made over the centuries. Having her in a generic simple old-fashioned dress does a better job of encompassing the range of women’s wartime activities. I could see it being done as 3 Lady Liberties–one in modern combat dress, one in a classic nurse uniform, and one in a simple revolutionary-era dress. But given that it depicted just one wartime woman, it was a decent choice. > > But damn, it’s an ugly statue. How can you say that?! It was designed by [Hy Rosen, a popular political cartoonist!](http://library.thinkquest.org/J001570/hyroseninterview.html) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/17 "2004-06-10T15:47:07Z")
[Here’s an excellent picture of the entire memorial](http://library.thinkquest.org/J001570/hyrosensculpture1.jpg) > [@](#): > > The Women Veteran’s War Memorial, located next to the State Museum, includes two smaller figures flanking “Lady Liberty.” To the right is a pioneer woman loading a musket and to the left is a modern-day infantrywoman wielding an automatic rifle ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/18 "2004-06-10T15:48:18Z")
I have about 300 Victoria’s Secret catalogues in my apartment. (Today’s mail hasn’t come yet) So I know Victoria’s Secret ads. I _work_ with Victoria’s Secret ads. Victoria’s Secret ads are my _friends_. That sir, is no Victoria’s Secret ad. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/19 "2004-06-10T15:55:22Z")
Let’s try again [Full Memorial](http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cpeek001/hyrosensculpture1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574/20 "2004-06-10T16:04:01Z")
That picture of the montage doesn’t improve the statue’s appearance, but jeez, haven’t they ever heard of allegory? You might as well be upset that that female figure representing Commerce I saw once didn’t have a blazer and a cellphone. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-insults-women-veterans-senator-says/249574.md?page=2)