# Statue of Democracy & Freedom **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 30, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293 "2010-05-30T16:01:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/21 "2010-06-01T05:14:07Z")
Hmmm . . . now let’s see, China’s an ostensibly socialist country . . . but lately depends a lot on touting nationalism for its government’s legitimacy. Now _there’s_ a crazy mix. But wait a minute . . . hmmm . . . Socialism? Nationalism? Socialism. Nationalism. National . . . socialism. \*Hey, I’ve got an idea! . . . \* ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/22 "2010-06-01T05:16:50Z")
I think we should build the statue now, and put it on a barge just off shore and out of reach of China. They will want the shiny, of course, but we just have to keep pulling it back from them and saying, “No no no, China. Representative democracy first – THEN you can have the statue. See how it shines? You are sooo close, just a liiitttle more freedom, and it’s yours”. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/23 "2010-06-01T05:29:17Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Since my school doesn’t get a ton of special events, there has been a lot of buzz about the “scientists from Beijing” coming here with their skulls- so much so that my morning classes were cancelled last week. From what I understand, the talk was presented in a debate format, with the Beijing scientists debating with our school’s anthropology department. The students were impressed that the Beijing scientists had skulls while our anthropology department just had models. So it wasn’t entirely a “this is how it is” thing, but it left a deep impression on my students that these scientists came all the way from Beijing to discuss their theories in our school. Many of them have been challenging me to prove that we share a common ancestor, but I haven’t found a good refutation yet. Do you see the difference between this and the way you presented this event in your earlier post? “That’s right- government scientists have come to my school to tell my students that they are a different fucking species than the rest of the planet” and what it infers (government goons forcing impressionable students to accept a ridiculous theory in order to bolster feelings of racial superiority) is totally different than, “the talk was presented in a debate format, with the Beijing scientists debating with our school’s anthropology department” (academics debated the validity of a couple of theories, some of them pretty ridiculous). You really need to pay attention to what you say and make sure it matches up with what you really mean. _From what I understand_ Were you there or not? ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/24 "2010-06-01T05:36:52Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Hmmm . . . now let’s see, China’s an ostensibly socialist country . . . but lately depends a lot on touting nationalism for its government’s legitimacy. Now _there’s_ a crazy mix. This is “socialism” with Chinese characteristics. Haven’t you been keeping up with the memos? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/25 "2010-06-01T06:23:36Z")
Okay, I got more information from my students. I was not there, but all of my students were and their English is good enough that I don’t think I’m really losing a lot in translation. It was a cross-provincial forum with “experts” from several provinces. Only Taiwan and Hong Kong represented the “Chinese people are the same species as the rest of humanity” side. The rest of the provincial representatives (including people from our school’s department) sided with the scientists from Beijing University. The fact that the Beijing University scientists bothered to come to our low-ranked school really impressed the students. It’s as if the top scientists at Yale gave a talk at your local community college. Meanwhile, the Hong Kong representative leading the “common ancestor” duo could not speak Mandarin and while they could apparently fly people from every corner of China in, they did not bother to get an interpreter. He presented most of his evidence in English, which most of the students could not understand particularly well. Needless to say, they were underwhelmed by his evidence. My students interpreted this as the “Chinese theory” versus the “Western theory.” I’m not sure if that is how it was meant to be interpreted, but that is what they got out of it. Their meaning definitely was that we are completely different species. They said it’s like Neanderthals, except instead of dying out homo erectus evolved into Asian people. They argued that there would be no way for the "other’ branch of humanity to cross geological barriers involved. One metaphor they used was lions and tigers. They said that lions and tigers are different species, but they can produce offspring. Likewise, Chinese and foreigners can produce offspring- but the scientists argued that these offspring would have “subtle genetic abnormalities” that would make them weaker and prone to diseases that only show up late in life. They likened it to genetically engineered food, and said that it went against nature. The students walked away almost entirely convinced. It was a slam dunk for the Beijing scientists. Frankly, I’m a bit terrified right now. I’m no optimist, and I had no idea things were that bad. I mean, this was a government sponsored all-expenses paid big-deal conference at my small school. What the hell is even going on? ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/26 "2010-06-01T06:39:32Z")
_I was not there_ So then why should we believe anything you say about this event? _I got more information from my students_ Hmmm. Would those be the same students whose politically incorrect interjections about Tibetans bathing only once a year you hold up as evidence of Chinese racism? \*their English is good enough that I don’t think I’m really losing a lot in translation \* Ok… \*He presented most of his evidence in English, which most of the students could not understand particularly well. \* Hmmm, odd. That seems to be a contradiction to the quote directly above (FWIW, I also don’t believe for a second that a university-level academic from Hong Kong can’t speak Mandarin). \*Likewise, Chinese and foreigners can produce offspring- but the scientists argued that these offspring would have “subtle genetic abnormalities” that would make them weaker and prone to diseases that only show up late in life. They likened it to genetically engineered food, and said that it went against nature. \* Let me use the **even sven** method of rebuttal: friends and students and other people around me have said the exact opposite, that foreign/Chinese babies are “beautiful” and “clever” and “handsome.” Therefore, you must be wrong. \*What the hell is even going on? \* As usual, you’re either lying, exaggerating, providing misleading information, don’t have all the information yourself, or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/27 "2010-06-01T08:17:36Z")
I was also a little curious as to why the couldn’t find a Hong Kong professor who can’t speak decent Mandarin, or any mainland scientists willing to support the mainstream. If I had to venture a guess, I’d guess this was not quite supposed to be a fair fight. My students speak decent English, but this was a campus-wide event and most attendees were not English majors. I dunno. Maybe my students are just making shit up. Maybe this never happened. Maybe my classes got cancelled and banners full of pictures of skulls went up because of an elaborate practical joke. Maybe it was a reasonable academic conference and my students just wildly misinterpreted it. Maybe I’m just fabricating lies for kicks. Maybe I’m a secret agent prowling the internet planting insidious rumors for nefarious purposes. Maybe I’m the lizard people. Or, you know, maybe that’s what happened. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/28 "2010-06-01T11:57:08Z")
I think we should stop hijacking this thread and bring things [to the pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12520612#post12520612). ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/29 "2010-06-01T13:08:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Anyway, things are still tighter than they were pre-1989. College students, especially, are often very nationalist and defensive. Dissidents are still be shut away in record numbers. Internet controls get tighter and tighter almost every month. Civil rights have declined significantly in a number of ways. There are some bright spots- journalism is somewhat free, as long as you do not question the authority of the government. But nothing that really matters has changed much. The same political structures that came up with the cultural revolution are still there, they’ve just found a more palatable form. Even Sven, with all due respect, you are so wrong on this score that it makes my brain hurt. The only thing that is accurate is that internet controls get tighter, and that’s because the internets didn’t exist in 1989. China in terms of people’s lives, personal freedom, reduction of state control, the household registration system, etc have come light years since 1989. I’m talking about in the countryside. This is all stuff I’ve personally seen. And I won’t bring in the personal shit that my wife and her relatives lived through at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/30 "2010-06-01T13:09:05Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > **even sven** , I’ve been trying to be really civil and polite with you lately, but you keep barfing up these stupid-ass comments that betray your ignorance about China and they just make my head hurt. > [@kindnyfailure](#): > > As usual, you’re either lying, exaggerating, providing misleading information, don’t have all the information yourself, or something similar. **kidneyfailure** , you are called upon here in this forum to make your points without resorting to insults. This you have failed to do. Stop being a jerk. If you want to continue in this vein, **evensven** has opened a [Pit thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12520612#post12520612) Please take further remarks there, and do not hurl such insults in MPSIMS again. **Ellen Cherry MPSIMS Moderator** ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/31 "2010-06-01T13:31:57Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > (FWIW, I also don’t believe for a second that a university-level academic from Hong Kong can’t speak Mandarin). I’m a Hong Konger, and I can assure you that you’re incorrect on this. This may change in another generation, but it is not surprising at all to find highly educated people who grew up in British Hong Kong to have very crappy to non-existent Mandarin capability. It was simply not taken seriously back then and was never taught in school. There’s also political baggage behind the use of Mandarin in HK, and there are people that refuse to have anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/32 "2010-06-01T15:57:48Z")
I’m also good family friends with a Hong Kong prof that speaks less-than-stellar Mandarin. I’ll concede that I exaggerated in saying that social controls are tighter than they were in 1989. But I still think China is a long ways away from a “slide” into democracy, and that particular fantasy is looking pretty unlikely at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/33 "2010-06-01T18:09:46Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I can well imagine that young Chinese living there are soon going to be in a position to push the proverbial envelope more and more. > > My guess is that the “old guard” from Mao are starting to die off in droves, and the lines have been blurred somewhat since then. > [@even\_sven](#): > > College students, especially, are often very nationalist and defensive. **even sven** I notice the same thing, but in Japan. The hope that the ‘old guard’ will die off shortly and allow the more free thinking (lib/dem) youngsters to take over seems like a bit of a sad joke to me. The younger generation, if I might make such a broad brushstoke, seem to be more nationalistic, and right wing than even their predecessors. The future leaders (executive branch - i.e. where the power is) have been/are being groomed to work within the system that is already in place. The public debate about whether the political system is any good is so thin on the ground it might as well be non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/34 "2010-06-02T01:09:31Z")
China has a far less intrusive government now than it has had anytime in the past hundred (if not thousand) years. overall, personal freedoms and lives for society as a whole in China continues to improve. One can argue the speed and pace of those improvements, and one can argue the need for democracy as part of the process, and one can argue whether the massive overpopulation makes China ‘different.’ Not sure where or why the ‘slide into democracy’ comes up? Not many people would take that stance. certainly not me. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/35 "2010-06-02T05:57:49Z")
Update if anyone cares: The police has returned the confiscated statue, after a public outcry. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/36 "2010-06-02T15:22:42Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I’m a Hong Konger, and I can assure you that you’re incorrect on this. This may change in another generation, but it is not surprising at all to find highly educated people who grew up in British Hong Kong to have very crappy to non-existent Mandarin capability. It was simply not taken seriously back then and was never taught in school. There’s also political baggage behind the use of Mandarin in HK, and there are people that refuse to have anything to do with it. 天不怕， 地不怕， 就怕广东人说普通话。 Eg, I don’t fear heaven, I don’t fear hell, I just fear Cantonese speaking Mandarin. Ok, it doesn’t flow so well in the translation, but it’s a common saying. Kidney, you’re wrong on this one. I lived in HK for 5 years, and while the Mandarin level there has increased dramatically, ít’s still pretty hit and miss. There are lots of Hongkongese professionals that barely understand and horribly mangle Mandarin. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/37 "2010-06-02T15:54:17Z")
Here’s a sample (YouTube link) of so-called “Mandarin”. Hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/38 "2010-06-04T18:45:02Z")
Kidney, are you one of the people the Communist Party pays to spread Chinese nationalistic propaganda around the net? I’m Chinese and I know through personal experience and blood ties that a great deal of Chinese people are racists. Even my mother, having left Taiwan in the 70’s, still have a fear of black people, and think Mexicans are thieves. Her choice of any contracting work is Chinese people even though we’ve been burned time and time again by idiot Chinese companies with no license or people who are simply too incompetent to do the job right. Give me a white guy listed in the phone book any day. A lot of the hate spews from the youth, who have gotten more defensive and hateful over the years since 1989. I believe it’s a purposeful shift. Get enough propaganda to waft through the airwaves and all the dumb kids will believe they’re being attacked simply for being Chinese. That’s bullshit. They’re being attacked because they’re douchebaggy assholes and they tow the party line. The youth of China needs to realize that whatever Western propaganda they fear is being disseminated, their own government does it a lot worst. One or two newspapers here and there criticizing the government means exactly shit. You can’t have the freedom to criticize the government when the government controls and owns you. The only good thing I’ll say about China’s government is that I sort of agree with them about the economic thing. It’s true that hundreds of millions of people have been brought out of poverty in the greatest economic upheaval in the history of mankind. That is important. I’d give up a few rights for that. If the Communist Party feels that it can only continue with crackdowns and arresting dissidents, I’m not sure that if I were starving I would disagree with them. Some things are more important than being able to criticize the government, like not starving to death ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293/39 "2010-06-04T22:11:58Z")
On the “democracy and freedom” front, a paper in Guangzhou recently published [a cartoon that seems to refer to the Tienanmen Square massacre](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8719284.stm). I was kind of excited about this since the subject is so taboo and a paper printing anything about it takes a lot of balls. Then I realized, it was twenty freaking years ago and the best public discourse they can still have is a single cartoon, immediately pulled down, that hints at it without commentary? The wheels of freedom turn slowly, don’t they? Anyone want to venture a guess at what happens to the cartoonist and the prospects of his family? Okay, maybe they won’t throw him in jail (although there are no legal protections to prevent them from doing so if they so choose- the legal structures that allow arbitrary imprisonment for “political crimes” haven’t changed) but he probably will probably find himself unable to find a job for a long, long time. His family members will quite likely mysteriously find their pensions drying up, their college applications being rejected, and their job prospects diminished. If it takes 20 years to get a cartoon, how long until people can talk about what happened freely? Freedom of expression may be improving, but it seems to me to be moving at a monumentally slow pace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-democracy-freedom/541293.md?page=1)