# Statue of limitations for God to punish you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139 "2006-02-05T20:38:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/81 "2006-02-09T13:08:53Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > If the house is poorly constructed, of course you would be to blame. The universe is a poorly made environment for people; if God made it, he screwed up. I’d say not only are you woefully unqualified to make that determination the facts also do not support you. Since humans came on the scene on this planet they have thrived and grown despite wars, disease, floods and everything else out to get us. Indeed, it may be argued a somewhat adverse environment is good overall for a species. Those that learn to adapt survive (survival of the fittest and all that jazz). Those that are coddled go the way of the Dodo the first time life throws a curve ball at them. > [@](#): > > Kremer (1993) sees human populations as growing at an increasing proportional rate from perhaps 125,000 in one million B.C. to 6 billion today. > > SOURCE: [http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/david.curry/worldpop.htm](http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/david.curry/worldpop.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/82 "2006-02-09T17:38:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you read back somewhere I said I do not believe in any of the miracles of the Bible…good or bad ones. Ancient times were rife with tall tales that grew taller with each telling (Oracles, mermaids, minotaurs, faeries…the list is long). For my money I buy the explanation of the Mediteranean Sea breaching the Bosphorus Straits and filled what is now the Black Sea. To people who rarely got more than 10 miles from their homes in their entire lives I can see how that would seem as if the world just flooded and certainly that would have counted as one of the granddaddies of all floods. Why are you avoiding the question? I said I knew you didn’t believe in the Flood - what I was asking was whether a god who did cause the flood wouls be moral. > [@](#): > > Your mistake here and through much of this is that it is God killing people. God hasn’t killed anyone…at least not directly. Unless your supposition is that since God created the Universe anything bad that happens in it is therefore God’s fault. To me that is wrongheaded. It’d be like saying I built a house and at some point someone fell down the stairs and broke their neck so it is my fault for building it in the first place. Silly. Well, god hasn’t done diddly, not existing and all. But I’m not omniscient. Even then, if I built a house with bannisters that would break off at the slightest pressure, so that I could reasonably expected to know that someone would get hurt, I’d liable. If God built a universe knowing people would get hurt, he either doesn’t care or is liable also. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/83 "2006-02-09T20:25:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’d say not only are you woefully unqualified to make that determination the facts also do not support you. I’m qualified to make that judgement by virtue of being human. Assuming God exists, I’m one of the people who has to put up with the poorly made human body and a hostile universe that he made. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since humans came on the scene on this planet they have thrived and grown despite wars, disease, floods and everything else out to get us. Which kind of proves my point about how poorly made the world and humans themselves are made, doesn’t it ? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Indeed, it may be argued a somewhat adverse environment is good overall for a species. Those that learn to adapt survive (survival of the fittest and all that jazz). Those that are coddled go the way of the Dodo the first time life throws a curve ball at them. God the Social Darwinist ? ---
**Author:** ![April](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@April](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/84 "2006-02-09T20:44:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, your view of the Bible, which I agree with factually, leads to problems also. God belief, and least in the Judeo-Christian god, is based on the Bible. (We don’t have any independent reason to believe in this type of god, right?) Yet when you yank away the Bible, you leave your God belief hanging in the middle of the air just like the Coyote after running off the cliff. Just like him, you’re held up by faith. I’m trying to get you to look down, so you can hold up a sign saying “oops” and plunge downward into the canyon of atheism. Happily, you’ll land in a lovely pool, and spend the rest of your Sunday mornings sunning yourself in luxury, never again to chase the elusive Roadrunner of god. > > \*\*\* This imagery brought to you by Voyager Studios. I’m buying my ticket early to get front row seats. ---
**Author:** ![April](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@April](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/85 "2006-02-09T21:55:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I do not need the Bible to support my faith. My faith is my own. I am a self described agnostic and not an atheist. For all my insistence on “proof” of whatever in life in the end I cannot help but feel there is a bit more to it all than can be explained or known. There is more to me than a collection of water and carbon and other miscellaneous junk (beer and pretzels come to mind). The Universe is just too amazing in its clockwork operation and nothing ever seems truly wasted. For whatever it is that is “me” to arbitrarily pop into existence and then at some point become utterly lost to the Universe is appalling to me and a terrible waste (no, I am not overstating my own importance…I belive this of anything that has existed). Do I have any proof for this? Nope. Do I have any clue what happens after this life? Nope. Do I allow that I may indeed end up being nothing more than worm food in the end? Yep. Nevertheless I can hope there is something more. Whatever makes you happy and gets you through this life, sweetie. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/86 "2006-02-10T02:45:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Why are you avoiding the question? I said I knew you didn’t believe in the Flood - what I was asking was whether a god who did cause the flood wouls be moral. I’m not avoiding it…I didn’t gather that this is what you were asking. The God of the Old Testament was a wrathful sort. I do not find that God’s actions particularly noble or moral. But then I think the Bible was written by humans and the Old Testament god was the first step past a pantheon of gods who were responsible for all sorts of mischief (e.g Zeus and company). That particular definition of God I do not buy. It makes no sense…this is God who can do anything and the best he can do to rectify a situation is to flood the world? Why not just snap Godly fingers and make all the bad people disappear? > [@](#): > > If God built a universe knowing people would get hurt, he either doesn’t care or is liable also. So your suggestion is that a just and moral god must make a Garden of Eden planet for us to live on where we just run around naked eating fruit all day, forever young and healthy where no one can so much as get a splinter and just gaze at the clouds in blissful ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/87 "2006-02-10T02:50:03Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > I’m qualified to make that judgement by virtue of being human. Assuming God exists, I’m one of the people who has to put up with the poorly made human body and a hostile universe that he made. You are allowed an opinion as a human no matter how wrongheaded. It seems to me to be able to make a qualified value judgement on how a Universe ought to be run you would need experience with putting one together yourself to understand all the factors that go into it. > [@](#): > > Which kind of proves my point about how poorly made the world and humans themselves are made, doesn’t it ? No…or I am missing what you are getting at. > [@](#): > > God the Social Darwinist ? Why not? The whole planet operates roughly along the lines of evolution from one thing to a better thing and survival of the fittest. If God created the world then this was clearly part of that plan. The alternative is a stagnant world…never changing, never growing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/88 "2006-02-10T02:53:22Z")
> [@April](#): > > Whatever makes you happy and gets you through this life, sweetie. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/89 "2006-02-10T05:33:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But then I think the Bible was written by humans and the Old Testament god was the first step past a pantheon of gods who were responsible for all sorts of mischief (e.g Zeus and company). That particular definition of God I do not buy. It makes no sense…this is God who can do anything and the best he can do to rectify a situation is to flood the world? Why not just snap Godly fingers and make all the bad people disappear? Hokay. Now I’m not sure if you think a god who flooded the world was evil or just inefficient. > [@](#): > > So your suggestion is that a just and moral god must make a Garden of Eden planet for us to live on where we just run around naked eating fruit all day, forever young and healthy where no one can so much as get a splinter and just gaze at the clouds in blissful ignorance? No, just no unnecessary dangers. If you got a mountain, some clown will fall off. If you got an ocean, someone will drown. But guy drowning in his own house - not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/90 "2006-02-10T05:51:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Hokay. Now I’m not sure if you think a god who flooded the world was evil or just inefficient. I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the punishments meted out by god in the Old Testament. Dunno about you but they smack a lot more of story telling around the campfire than anything I would expect a God to actually do in those situations. And yes…I think efficiency would likely be a trait God would exhibit. Presumably God can do anything with a mere thought…why muck about? As for was it evil I am not sure why you are trying to pin me on this. IF the God I am suggesting exists and IF that God deemed it necessary to flood the earth and kill everything then I would say it is probably not evil as presumably God had some good reason for doing it that justified such an extreme act. Yes, it looks pretty awful to me too but if God were truly evil then I expect things would be a lot worse for us. If got was random or capricious then we should see a heck of alot more random weirdness (not the usual acts of nature…parting of the seas, flooding the world sorts of things) as God fucks around. In the end however I think humans are quite incapable of judging a supreme being (and I am not counting Zeus as a Supreme Being or our wrathful Old Testament god). Yes you can have your opinion on the matter but it is worse than a two year old passing judgment on your actions. They are simply incapable of grasping all of the pieces that may go into a given decision to form a useful opinion of it. The difference between humans and a supreme being would be vastly larger in this respect. ---
**Author:** ![April](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@April](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/91 "2006-02-10T17:09:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Huh? It was nothing personal. I believe in live and let live so I was just supporting your decision as long as it’s not hurting anyone. ---
**Author:** ![April](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@April](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/92 "2006-02-10T17:21:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So your suggestion is that a just and moral god must make a Garden of Eden planet for us to live on where we just run around naked eating fruit all day, forever young and healthy where no one can so much as get a splinter and just gaze at the clouds in blissful ignorance? That would be great!! Don’t forget mind blowing orgasms any time. My view is if we didn’t know what _this world_ was about we wouldn’t miss it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/93 "2006-02-10T22:46:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In the end however I think humans are quite incapable of judging a supreme being (and I am not counting Zeus as a Supreme Being or our wrathful Old Testament god). Yes you can have your opinion on the matter but it is worse than a two year old passing judgment on your actions. They are simply incapable of grasping all of the pieces that may go into a given decision to form a useful opinion of it. The difference between humans and a supreme being would be vastly larger in this respect. First of all, I’m not implying that the alternative to a purely good god is a purely evil one. God can easily be amoral. Let me rephrase the argument to get it away from the flood level. Consider God G performing act F. Act F is an act so horrible (like genocide) that it is supportable by all ethically supportable human moral systems, no matter the justification. The first question is whether god can commit this act. if he cannot, it must be because he either a) Is subject to human morals - certainly not the case or b) Subject to some universal moral code greater than god. Then he is not omnipotent, and is not god. c) Unable to perform it due to his omnibenevolence. In another thread we have already shown that omnipotences, omniscience and omnibenevolence cannot all be true. Thus this case is impossible. So, we’ve shown a god can perform F. Is F moral? a) It is by definition, since God performed it. This must imply that it would also be moral if a person performed it. Yet F is universally acknowledged as immoral. Since God can do anything, and anything he can do is moral, then anything we can do is moral, and thus morality does not exist for humans. This is not a paradox, but is certainly not a conclusion I suspect you would like to draw. b) It is moral because there is a good, though unknown, reason for it. From our point of view, we can’t tell if this is any different from case a), since God can’t or won’t tell us his reasons, so we must believe that action F is justified on faith. The real moral dilemma of this case is that it opens any action, however wrong, to justification. This justification does not say the action is right because God did it, but it is right because we trust god had a reason we don’t know. Why should we not use the same justification for performing seemingly immoral acts here? A despot can easily claim he is in possession of information he cannot share justifying act F. In this case we don’t assume god is always moral (or else choice a would apply) so we cannot assume the action is justified. Thus, you assume it is moral, just as in a. Now, you may think this not matter, since we have no control over what god does. But for those who think god can involve himself in earthly affairs, it is a real problem, since someone talking to a being who claims he is god has no filter to help decide whether the acts the being is requesting are moral or not. If God’s morality matched human morality, one could be sure an entity asking you to massacre a tribe is not god, but the devil or an evil alien or something like that. In your system, you have the choice of refusing, and thus disobeying god, a sin, or agreeing, and possibly being tricked into doing evil. So, it’s a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139/94 "2006-02-11T04:29:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Let me rephrase the argument to get it away from the flood level. Consider God G performing act F. Act F is an act so horrible (like genocide) that it is supportable by all ethically supportable human moral systems, no matter the justification. > > The first question is whether god can commit this act. if he cannot, it must be because he either > a) Is subject to human morals - certainly not the case > or > b) Subject to some universal moral code greater than god. Then he is not omnipotent, and is not god. > c) Unable to perform it due to his omnibenevolence. In another thread we have already shown that omnipotences, omniscience and omnibenevolence cannot all be true. Thus this case is impossible. > > So, we’ve shown a god can perform F. Is F moral? I think the logic of this is missing something. There is a difference between being _able_ to do a thing and actually _choosing_ to do a thing. Is God _able_ to commit an immoral act? Sure else as you said God loses his omnipotence. Would God ever commit an immoral act (as defined by God and not us)? Assuming an omnibenevolent God then no. Let’s bring it a bit closer to home with an example I think we can all understand. I _could_ walk out of my house and go randomly kill someone. That said I will NEVER do such a thing as it goes against the grain of who I am in a big, big way. So I think you can have an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God. God can be capable of evil without ever actually doing evil as a matter of choice. > [@](#): > > Now, you may think this not matter, since we have no control over what god does. But for those who think god can involve himself in earthly affairs, it is a real problem, since someone talking to a being who claims he is god has no filter to help decide whether the acts the being is requesting are moral or not. If God’s morality matched human morality, one could be sure an entity asking you to massacre a tribe is not god, but the devil or an evil alien or something like that. In your system, you have the choice of refusing, and thus disobeying god, a sin, or agreeing, and possibly being tricked into doing evil. So, it’s a real problem. Well…if we _knew_ God was omnibenevolent and we _knew_ that it was, in fact, God telling us to do something then I do not think you need a filter to do God’s bidding and had best get with the program and do whatever it is that is being asked of you. That said there is NO way we can know either of those things and frankly anyone on this planet having personal conversations with God had best be committed. Indeed I would be highly suspicious of any “God” telling me to do something seemingly immoral on his behalf. I mean this is God…why would God need me to be the instrument of his will when presumably God could blink whatever needs doing into being done? A “test of my faith” is bullshit too…if God is omniscient God has a better handle on the depth of my faith than I probably do. So, as a practical matter I agree that the “God told me to do it” bit is rife with problems. History shows many, many people who do real evil have fallen back on this not to mention a great many of those were legitimately insane. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statue-of-limitations-for-god-to-punish-you/343139.md?page=4)