# Statutory Rape. How deep does the rabbit hole go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135 "2004-05-20T06:17:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/61 "2004-05-20T22:45:08Z")
OK. Here’s my “what if” What if a man and a woman (girl) were legally married, but the girl submitted false documents showing her age to be say, 21 when she was actually 17 and the clerk (or whomever) was fooled by these fakes and issued a marriage license. So at this point both the husband and the State have been successfully fooled. Are they married? If they have sex is it statutory rape? What if the age of consent is 18 but the legal age of marriage is 16? (Is that even possible?) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/62 "2004-05-20T22:48:41Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Hmmm. > > This looks like a job for jury nullification. > > Yes, in this country, a jury does have the constitutional right to aquit a defendant if they believe the law is wrong. It’s not my understanding that this is the case. As I understand it, jury nullification is not a legal doctrine. Juries are not allowed to object to the law. The trick, though, is that a jury’s verdict of not guilty may not be appealed in a criminal case. So, if a jury decides to acquit in the face of evidence that the defendant committed the acts that are defined as punishable under the law, no one can effectively do anything about it. Jury nullification is more a byproduct of our system of jurispudence rather than a “constitutional right” possessed by members of a jury. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/63 "2004-05-20T22:55:15Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > An 18 year old who goes out with a person a year ahead of them at their school could ask them and be told they are 19 and never susspedt that person had skipped two years ahead, and just lied to keep from seeming the odd one out in class. In many states, the statutory rape law includes some sort of “buffer zone,” (such as a “tolerance” of four years’ difference in age) such that if the age of consent is 18, the minor is 17 and the defendant is 19, then there’s no violation. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/64 "2004-05-21T00:04:09Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > In many states, the statutory rape law includes some sort of “buffer zone,” (such as a “tolerance” of four years’ difference in age) such that if the age of consent is 18, the minor is 17 and the defendant is 19, then there’s no violation. But then that just goes that an 18 to 21 year old would be ‘magically’ innocent, but a 22 year old wouldn’t. Reading this thread I’m kind of glad I always had an eye for slightly older women. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/65 "2004-05-21T00:14:23Z")
> [@chula](#): > > You don’t see how a jury might be confused and misled if they were presented with evidence that she told the defendant she was not a minor? It seems pretty clear from this thread that the typical lay person would consider such evidence as evidence of the defendant’s innocence. The judge will instruct the jury that what the defendant believed about her age not relevant, but if the judge believes the jury is likely to take it into account anyway, then s/he should not allow it. Every good trial lawyer knows and takes advantage of the fact that juries misuse evidence. Most appellate cases on point (at least the ones that I have read) say: 1. The law assumes that juries follow judges’ instructions; and 2. This goes double for defendants in criminal cases I have argued this issue to death in the courts of a few states, both in favor of and against admissibility. The usual outcome is that the judge will err in favor of admitting the evidence. Of course, YMMV. > [@](#): > > If the witness does have a propensity for dishonesty, the defense should be able to come up with an instance of lying that does not risk introducing otherwise inadmissible evidence. I agree that, in a perfect world, the defense should be able to find someone who would testify that the witness was a big fat liar, or a perjury conviction, or something. But the investigative tools that are available to the prosecution (especially guys in uniforms and grand jury subpoenas) are not available to the defense. It’s hard to get that kind of evidence without these tools. So as a mentor of mine once told me, you gotta dance with what you brought. If that was all I had, you can bet I would at least consider using it. And remember the key rule of evidence. A piece of evidence is not inadmissible until you offer it, you opponent objects, and the judge sustains the objection. It’s worth a try. Here is a risk that nobody has mentioned. If the witness lies on the stand when I ask her that question (and she might, especially if she really is dishonest 😃 ), I probably cannot put on a witness to contradict her. So I would need to evaluate that issue before I do so. Regarding nullification. Here is a recent [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239264) on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/66 "2004-05-21T00:19:43Z")
I’m not saying I wouldn’t try it as the defense attorney, just that I wouldn’t allow it as the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/67 "2004-05-21T00:40:21Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > I never ceased to be amazed by what I learn in any of these statutory rape threads. The entire area of law seems to turn logic on its head. I agree with that second part, but I’m no longer amazed to find that sex laws and/or age laws in the US violate common sense. We’ve heard earlier in the thread that sex with a minor is a “strict liability” crime in most states. Does anyone know how it’s treated in other countries, e.g. Canada and the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/68 "2004-05-21T01:00:32Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Does anyone know how it’s treated in other countries, e.g. Canada and the UK? In Canada, it appears that mistake is a defense “[if the accused took all reasonable steps to ascertain the age of the complainant](http://www.ageofconsent.com/canada.htm).” A similar rule seems to apply in the [UK](http://www.ageofconsent.com/unitedkingdom.htm). I’m not a lawyer in those countries, so this is really just an educated guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/69 "2004-05-21T01:28:22Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > But then that just goes that an 18 to 21 year old would be ‘magically’ innocent, but a 22 year old wouldn’t. > Reading this thread I’m kind of glad I always had an eye for slightly older women. Oh, it gets better than that. In Florida, a 23 year old who has sex with a 16 year old has not committed a crime. But the 16 year old who has sex with a 15 year old is a felon!! Or get this: If you’re 23 and you’re having sexual relations with a 16 year old, you’re good and legal. But once you turn 24, you have to wait until she is 18 to have sex again!! So, say if you met when she was 16 and you had been having sex for a year. Then, you turn 24 and she turns 17, even though you had already been having sex for a year, you’ll have to sit it out for the next 12 months until she is 18. HA! These laws are fun! ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/70 "2004-05-21T01:52:57Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > These laws are fun! Unless you’re the one who has to go to jail and tell his neighbors he’s a sex offender because of some girl with a fake ID, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/71 "2004-05-21T02:04:29Z")
> [@BurnMeUp](#): > > Another thought… If you went through tthe troble to ask for a notorized birth certificate and photo ID before the deed, I think that would cast enough doubt in the trial phase that you felt certain of her age. I mean if you truely thought she was legal, why would you ask in the first place. If you had doubts you shouldn’t have hit it. I disagree. It’s not a matter of “doubts”, it’s a matter of simple common sense. For example, I know a girl at my school who’s a year ahead of me, but is actually 18. _shrugs_ Don’t know how that worked, exactly, but that’s the case. Further, she looks like she’s in her early 20s. So, say I’d met her last year, when I was 19 and she was 17. If I’d asked her what year she was, she would have told me she was a year ahead of me. I’d have assumed - and in most cases, this would have been reasonable - this meant that she was also either a year older than me, or at least my age. It would _never_ have occured to me that she might be underage. And if I’d slept with her, I’d have committed statutory rape. This is rather an extreme example, but it does make my point, I think. Even if circumstances and appearance are such that you haven’t a doubt the person is legal, asking for ID does make a degree of sense. I will admit, however, that it would tend to ruin the mood. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/72 "2004-05-21T02:16:51Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Similar to **Shade** ’s last point, would there be a viable civil case against a girl whom lied about being over age formable by the defendant in this case. Also the ‘don’t sleep with strangers’ vibe coming from some posters here is crazy, how many people that you know well do you actually know the age of (seen their birth certificate etc.) An 18 year old who goes out with a person a year ahead of them at their school could ask them and be told they are 19 and never susspedt that person had skipped two years ahead, and just lied to keep from seeming the odd one out in class. Oops. Beardless or not, Bippy, you made my point for me. I should have read the _whole_ thread before posting, it seems. :wally 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/73 "2004-05-21T04:32:43Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > In FLorida, such evidence is not even admissable. You cannot tell the jury that she had a fake ID or that you met her in a club. I suppose a defense lawyer could get around this by forcing the prosecution to prove that the official records rather than the fake ID indicated her true age – both documents would clearly be relevant evidence concerning that issue – and hope for jury nullification. Weak, but probably the best strategy you’ve got if the case actually goes forward. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/74 "2004-05-21T05:14:17Z")
The ID was issued by the state of residence… on a forged birth certificate. It’s not a “fake ID” in the usual sense. Anyway, it sounds like jury nullification is your only hope if you end up in court… because even if the minor has the ability to look 25, the prosecution is probably going to put her in pigtails before she goes on the stand. The rabbit hole is an _Alice in Wonderland_ / _Through the Looking Glass_ reference, and you all know it. Though the subtopic is interesting. What about the roommates? No one has addressed their fates. ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/75 "2004-05-21T05:18:03Z")
> [@chula](#): > > I’m not saying I wouldn’t try it as the defense attorney, just that I wouldn’t allow it as the judge. How do I nominate this for “Potential sig of the week”? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/76 "2004-05-21T12:10:10Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Isn’t tricking someone else into committing a crime illegal? Well, tricking them into doing it doesn’t happen all that often. Depending on the fact pattern, it might be fraud. But there are three common forms of crime that deal with this situation: Solicitation, conspiracy, and complicity. If you ask someone to commit a crime, or suggest it, you may be guilty of solicitation. If you plan the crime with the person, and maybe do some of it, too, or benefit from it you are guilty of conspiracy. And if you help them with the crime, you are an accomplice (or an accessory). The problem in the case of statutory rape is that generally none of these doctrines apply to a person who is to be protected from the crime in question. So you can’t charge the minor with soliciting statutory rape, or conspiracy to commit it, or being an accomplice. That makes sense. OTOH, forgery is a crime; so is knowing possession of forged documents. Defrauding a public official in order to get false identification documents is a crime. Altering a driver’s license is a crime, too. Ok, here is an example from the law school casebooks involving people being tricked into committing a crime: Husband invites three friends over. He tells them that his wife has a rape fantasy–she will protest, but really wants them to have sex with her. The men (who are drunk) go into the bedroom and have sex with the wife. She protests (for real–she has no rape fantasy) but they overcome her and have sex with her. Husband is convicted of rape, despite the fact that the rape statute excludes husbands from prosecution for raping their wives. How about the three dupes? It depends on the reasonableness of their belief that the wife really was consenting. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/77 "2004-05-21T12:28:00Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Ok, here is an example from the law school casebooks involving people being tricked into committing a crime: > > Husband invites three friends over. He tells them that his wife has a rape fantasy–she will protest, but really wants them to have sex with her. The men (who are drunk) go into the bedroom and have sex with the wife. She protests (for real–she has no rape fantasy) but they overcome her and have sex with her. > > Husband is convicted of rape, despite the fact that the rape statute excludes husbands from prosecution for raping their wives. > > How about the three dupes? It depends on the reasonableness of their belief that the wife really was consenting. :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: Scratch that. I got the procedural pattern totally wrong. Husband was not charged, and so the case is totally irrelevant to our discussion. Forget I mentioned it. But here is a [link](http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/trape.html) to an article that discusses it. The case is _Morgan_. I also note that in addition to being wrong about the procedural posture of the case, I failed to remember that it was an English case. I need caffeine. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/78 "2004-05-21T14:19:31Z")
Having stirred up a legal tempest once, let me do so again. Many states (don’t know if Florida is among them) have gender neutral sex crime laws. Assuming a state has strict liability gender neutral statuatory rape laws, if a 16 year old male raped a 24 year old woman, couldn’t she be charged with statuatory rape? She did after all indisputably have sex with a minor. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/79 "2004-05-21T14:47:41Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > If a 16 year old male raped a 24 year old woman, couldn’t she be charged with statuatory rape? She did after all indisputably have sex with a minor. Now you are thinking like a law professor. The short answer, however, is no. The act doesn’t count if it is involuntary. Most courts would treat this as a case where there was “no act.” ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135/80 "2004-05-21T15:14:32Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Unless you’re the one who has to go to jail and tell his neighbors he’s a sex offender because of some girl with a fake ID, of course. Can you get Whooooshed for missing sarcasm, if so I think **Mr2001** just got Royally Whooooshed 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/statutory-rape-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go/246135.md?page=5)