# Staunch conservatives requesting public funded benefits **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268 "2019-01-05T21:42:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/41 "2019-01-08T08:09:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It is entirely possible to be against something, advocate against it, while simultaneously taking advantage of it. > > Play within the rules, while trying to change the rules. I could be against a particular tax deduction, but continue to take it while it is available. Yes. Doing so is NOT hypocritical; failure to do so would be stupid. This is so obvious that I wonder if some Dopers are mesmerized by the “conservative/liberal” schism in OP’s example, and would get it right were the left/right roles reversed. (The contradiction can lead to hypocrisy or stupidity — “Keep the government hands off my Medicare!” — but by itself it isn’t.) If I’m an American League baseball manager who opposes the Designated Hitter rule, am I morally obligated to send the pitcher up to bat for himself? If I favor a complete gun ban but happen on one when the bad guy is raping and murdering my family, is it hypocrisy to use the gun? It was **Stranger on a Train** and/or **Chronos** , IIRC, who referenced a rule variant in Monopoly and calls these mistaken claims of hypocrisy the “Free Parking” fallacy. In other news, 2+2 is still 4. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/42 "2019-01-08T12:17:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As I stated above, I can see no such argument when it comes to accepting welfare. Can any of you think of one? For the sake of argument: 1. I think welfare is a drain on the finances of the nation, and increases the national debt, therefore the program should be ended. 2. My family is in a financial position to receive welfare benefits. 3. I choose to accept those benefits. Why do I choose to accept the benefits of a program that increases the national debt in a way I find improper? It’s because when the chickens come home to roost, and we have to pay that debt, it’s my child who is going to be paying the bill. If my child is going to be saddled with paying down a debt from a program we should never have run, I’m damn well not going to deprive him of whatever financial benefits he was entitled to under the program. To do that would mean he’s going to pay for the benefits of everyone besides himself, and that doesn’t make much sense. It’s similar, in my mind, to the ridiculous decision of Republican led states to refuse Medicaid expansion. Their citizens were still paying for the expansion in other states than where they lived. They paid, but didn’t get any benefits from it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/43 "2019-01-08T18:22:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Perhaps you should offer a definition of hypocrisy and/or hypocrite; I’m not at all sure we agree on what they mean now that I’ve read your post. Why me? You used the word first. If you think there’s a terminological problem here, why not just say what you think it is? Why not simply outline where you disagree with me? > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No and no. But if I had said “no and yes”, would you have believed me when I said I’d donate the difference to the government at tax time, would you have accepted that as true? :dubious: > > Because your post was nothing but a ridiculous leading question. :rolleyes: To be honest, I probably wouldn’t have believed you. If you had said you were going to donate the difference to charity, I would have been more willing to believe that answer, but the idea that you sending a few hundred or even a few thousand extra dollars to the United States government, all by yourself, is going to make any difference, is so bizarre that I would actually question the intelligence of anyone who made such an assertion. It would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/44 "2019-01-08T18:36:09Z")
By the way, in the name of transparency, let me note something about the tax cut. I was opposed to it, and I still think it’s terrible policy. My wife and I will also benefit directly from the tax cut, to the tune of around $1,500 to $2,000 per year, based on a rough, back-of-the-envelope calculation I did just after it was passed. We’re not going to donate that money to the government, and I admit that one reason is self-interest. Quite frankly, that money will be quite useful to us. But if and when any opportunity arises, we will reiterate our opposition to the tax cut, and if and when the opportunity arises, we’ll do everything we can to ensure that people are elected who will not only repeal the cut, but will institute a more progressive taxation system. We all make choices, and we all draw our lines of principle in slightly different places. There are some things that each of us finds morally beyond the pale, and other things that are more ambiguous or flexible. It’s a product of the human condition. I’m a vegetarian, for a variety of reasons related to animal welfare and environmental concerns. If I were to take my principles on this issue to their natural conclusion, however, I should probably also be a vegan, because many of the same issues that I’m concerned about apply just as much to the egg and dairy industries as they do to the meat industry. But I like eggs and milk and cheese too much to give them up. I should probably also decline to wear leather belts in my jeans, but I still have leather belts. Is that inconsistent? Sure. But I think we all live with a certain amount of inconsistency in our lives, and I’m not willing to use the label of “hypocrisy” to label every instance of inconsistency I find, in myself or in other people. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/45 "2019-01-08T20:25:19Z")
So if someone depends on social security and Medicare and SNAP, etc etc, then votes for a politician who promises to destroy or heavily restrict those programs, what do they think the end result will be? If they do get their wish, and the welfare / wealth redistribution programs are eliminated, what do they expect will happen to them? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/46 "2019-01-08T20:43:49Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > So if someone depends on social security and Medicare and SNAP, etc etc, then votes for a politician who promises to destroy or heavily restrict those programs, what do they think the end result will be? If they do get their wish, and the welfare / wealth redistribution programs are eliminated, what do they expect will happen to them? A leopard will eat their face. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/47 "2019-01-08T21:12:51Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > So if someone depends on social security and Medicare and SNAP, etc etc, then votes for a politician who promises to destroy or heavily restrict those programs, what do they think the end result will be? If they do get their wish, and the welfare / wealth redistribution programs are eliminated, what do they expect will happen to them? They are probably voting for the politician for other reasons. Example…they think (believe, whatever) that said politician will bring back those good old fashion low skill high wage and high benefit jobs to the good old USA (sound familiar?) from those less worthy countries. Or…they are worried that the politician on the other side will take their guns…or allow trans-sexual men to use the same bathrooms as their daughters…or allow that gay marriage stuff to happen…or myriad other vertical issues that are important to them and they are willing to sacrifice their own benefits for because they think are more important. Or, they rightfully think that even if the guy they are voting for DOES get in, he’s not actually going to be able to cut social security, Medicare or SNAP or really anything else (especially those first two), regardless, so voting for them in the hope they might bring those great coal jobs back doesn’t have a real downside for them (of course, it has, but the reasons are too complex for most folks who are suckered in by the MAGA and bring those Apple jobs back to the US schtick). ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/48 "2019-01-08T21:27:27Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > So if someone depends on social security and Medicare and SNAP, etc etc, then votes for a politician who promises to destroy or heavily restrict those programs, what do they think the end result will be? If they do get their wish, and the welfare / wealth redistribution programs are eliminated, what do they expect will happen to them? I think a lot of people don’t care as long as other people suffer. They don’t think it’s going to get them. Remember the Trump voter who was upset her husband got deported? > [@](#): > > When Helen Beristain told her husband that she was voting for Donald Trump in last year’s presidential election, he warned her that the Republican nominee planned to “get rid of the Mexicans.” > > Defending her vote, Helen Beristain quoted Trump directly, noting that the tough-talking Republican said he would kick only the “bad hombres” out of the country, according to the South Bend Tribune. > **[Trump supporter regrets vote after undocumented husband is deported](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/04/04/the-last-ditch-effort-to-save-a-trump-voters-husband-from-deportation/?utm_term=.6e42decc072b)** > > Roberto Beristain's attorneys battled to keep him in the U.S., but this week he was returned to Mexico. or this guy who supported the wall, but now is upset it’s going across his butterfly preserve: > [@](#): > > On Monday, the Washington Post published an op-ed headlined, “I voted for Trump. Now his wall may destroy my butterfly paradise” by Luciano Guerra—an educator at the National Butterfly Center in Mission, Texas, near the border—who said he voted for Trump because he’s a small government–loving “lifelong Republican” who doesn’t “want open borders.” Guerra maintained that he never took Trump’s threats to build a wall literally. > **[This Is What It Takes for a Trump Voter to Change Their Mind](https://www.vice.com/en/article/439ppj/this-is-what-it-takes-for-a-trump-voter-to-change-their-mind)** > > Why the widely-mocked case of a butterfly expert—and Republican—upset over the president's border wall actually matters. or this one from today’s NY Times: > [@](#): > > I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” she said of Mr. Trump. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting. > **[‘It’s Just Too Much’: A Florida Town Grapples With a Shutdown After a...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html)** > > In Florida’s deeply conservative Panhandle, federal prison workers were already struggling after Hurricane Michael. Then came the government shutdown. In all three cases they were fine as long as other people suffered. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/49 "2019-01-08T22:24:26Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > In all three cases they were fine as long as other people suffered. That last one is the best. Confirming people voted for Trump because they expect him to “hurt” their imaginary enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/50 "2019-01-09T01:13:47Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It is entirely possible to be against something, advocate against it, while simultaneously taking advantage of it. > > Play within the rules, while trying to change the rules. I could be against a particular tax deduction, but continue to take it while it is available. It’s totally possible. You can advocate campaign finance reform, while taking advantage of the rules such as they exist. You can argue vociferously against the Free Parking houserule in the board game Monopoly (where penalties drawn by cards are place in the middle of the board and scooped up by those landing on Free Parking), but take advantage of this rule once you are outvoted. (Bricker likes to use this example.) What you _can’t_ do without hypocrisy is denigrate the users of such programs as Leeches, “Welfare Queens”, or Takers, then turn around and avail yourself of those same programs. Like Ayn Rand did. Separately and generally speaking, you also can’t advocate corporate welfare for me, but not social welfare for thee without referencing principles both general and specific. Extra scrutiny should be applied to cases where you may be using motivated reasoning. But a cool-headed and empirically grounded discussion of public policy is acceptable among participants and non-participants of public programs. Considered judgment is encouraged, along with demonstrable introspection. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/51 "2019-01-09T05:02:28Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > There was the amusing case of Craig T. Nelson who was upset about paying taxes. Nobody helped him when he was on foodstamps and welfare, so why should he help anyone else. > > [Craig T. Nelson on 'Glenn Beck' | Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/story/craig-t-nelson-on-glenn-beck) I hadn’t seen this before. How can someone possibly say “I was on food stamps and welfare” and THEN say “Nobody helped me”?? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/52 "2019-01-09T11:50:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I hadn’t seen this before. How can someone possibly say “I was on food stamps and welfare” and THEN say “Nobody helped me”?? Epic levels of non-self-awareness? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/53 "2019-01-10T02:51:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I hadn’t seen this before. How can someone possibly say “I was on food stamps and welfare” and THEN say “Nobody helped me”?? Seems to me he may have been saying nobody helped him out of the situation of being on welfare, given the rest of the the sentence was “that came from my education” As opposed to saying " nobody helped me out " as a coloquialism for getting help in general. I could be wrong but he doesn’t seem quite that stupid. I could readily believe that some people would be that stupid though, quite a few I know of that it wouldn’t really surprise me if they were to say that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/54 "2019-01-10T02:57:55Z")
This is why education camps will be necessary. We will need emergency legislation declaring the republican party a treasonous, terroristic political wing that is the enemy of the American people. This will only be possibly when the Republican policies bankrupt the average American, which is why we need a great depression. But even then, you’re average Jerry Springer-watching, Joe Rogan-listening Ameritard still might not get it. The military (centrist) can take over and demand behavior. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/55 "2019-01-10T04:08:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This is why education camps will be necessary. > > We will need emergency legislation declaring the republican party a treasonous, terroristic political wing that is the enemy of the American people. This will only be possibly when the Republican policies bankrupt the average American, which is why we need a great depression. But even then, you’re average Jerry Springer-watching, Joe Rogan-listening Ameritard still might not get it. The military (centrist) can take over and demand behavior. :smack: Not this unhinged shit again. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/56 "2019-01-10T11:29:51Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Seems to me he may have been saying nobody helped him out of the situation of being on welfare, given the rest of the the sentence was “that came from my education”. I think the point is… food stamps and welfare helped him out of the situation he was in. “Being on welfare” isn’t the core problem, being impoverished is. Without these programs, without enough food or money to pay for rent, would his education have actually gotten him out of his bind? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/57 "2019-01-10T17:14:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > This is why education camps will be necessary. > > We will need emergency legislation declaring the republican party a treasonous, terroristic political wing that is the enemy of the American people. This will only be possibly when the Republican policies bankrupt the average American, which is why we need a great depression. But even then, you’re average Jerry Springer-watching, Joe Rogan-listening Ameritard still might not get it. The military (centrist) can take over and demand behavior. This is pretty far afield from the topic at hand. Also, ranting belongs in the Pit. Try to stay on topic, and save your rants for the proper place. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/58 "2019-01-11T00:26:26Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think the point is… food stamps and welfare helped him out of the situation he was in. “Being on welfare” isn’t the core problem, being impoverished is. > > Without these programs, without enough food or money to pay for rent, would his education have actually gotten him out of his bind? Yeah I know, it’s kind of semantics but just saying, I’m not even sure who this guy is but taking the quote out of context definitely made it seem far more ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/59 "2019-01-11T02:59:34Z")
Yeah but being on food stamps and welfare means somebody IS helping you. The rest of America is helping you. To deny that seems ridiculous to me. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268/60 "2019-01-11T03:09:56Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > > I think the point is… food stamps and welfare helped him out of the situation he was in. “Being on welfare” isn’t the core problem, being impoverished is. > > > > Without these programs, without enough food or money to pay for rent, would his education have actually gotten him out of his bind? > > Yeah I know, it’s kind of semantics but just saying, I’m not even sure who this guy is but taking the quote out of context definitely made it seem far more ridiculous. Out of context? The [post](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21416606#post21416606) by **Andy L** upthread included a link to a transcript of the entire conversation with Craig T Nelson. Does reading the whole thing make it seem less ridiculous? I don’t think so, but perhaps you do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staunch-conservatives-requesting-public-funded-benefits/827268.md?page=4)