# Staying the course -- Saddam style **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 28, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976 "2005-11-28T00:07:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/21 "2005-11-30T08:46:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Eternal vigilance. This can happen there and it can happen here, too. “Can”? Try “Is”… ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/22 "2005-11-30T12:20:10Z")
I love ‘fuckity.’ Good word. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/23 "2005-11-30T16:16:51Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > I should have been clearer. I should have stated that while it’s true that Iraq was originally a relatively secular and wealthy place back in 1978, by March 2003 and after 2 debillitating wars, Saddam Hussein’s only end game was staying in power…Just as a bit of interest, I’m almost certain that a cite exists here on the SDMB which stated that Iraq’s original 1978 GDP per capita was $17,500USD adjusted into 2003 figures if memory serves me correctly, and that by March 2003 it had dropped to just $1,500 per capita. Why are you talking about 1978? That was only when Saddam decisively came out of the shadows and assumed the trappings of power. He’d actually been running the country for nearly a decade at that point. What the statistics actually show is a large leap while Saddam was running the country without war, a big drop after the Iran-Iraq War and a big drop after the 1991 Gulf War and resultant sanctions. On preview, I can’t get the chart to display properly, but take a look at Table 1 on[this link.](http://www.casi.org.uk/info/alnasrawi9905.html) The conclusion to draw from this is that Saddam actually cared about the economy - perhaps not for humanistic reasons, but more because it gave him more power etc. It was the wars and sanctions that screwed up the economy, not the intentional / negligent actions of Saddam against the economy per se, so I don’t think you can make a case that for his “crush[ing] a country’s collective wealth”. He would have loved to keep the economy going - more power and cash skimmed off for him. > [@](#): > > You had a country which…was wealthy and secular and middle class and pretty OK with women’s rights and all that sorta stuff and then BAM… 25 years later the whole place is fucked. Education systems… health care infrastrucutre… commitment to the rule of law… property rights… all of it down the gurgler. Saddam was in favour of wealth, certainly in favour of secularism, in favour of women’s rights (at least as far as the region goes), ditto education, health etc. Can’t say there was “rule of law” or property rights either before or after Saddam. Why do we have to bend or ignore facts to argue that Saddam was a monster in _all_ ways? Why aren’t his corruption, his construction of a brutal police state and his murder of his own people sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/24 "2005-11-30T16:33:00Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Actually, no need to be so brutally cruel to just the Jesus-loving warmongers. Just raise taxes to compensate for the war. Let’s go with a conservative estimate of $75B per year. > > $75B divided by 150M American taxpayers (it’s less than that I know, I’m sure the IRS could give us some good numbers) gives us $500 a year. > > It is, after all, the fiscally responsible thing to do. > > -Joe Almost. What we need to do is cut taxes for the rich and the upper middle class (many of whom are arguably pretty damned wealthy anyway) while dropping minimum wage and social programs. See, that way we get to protect our corporate contributors, give them a pool of what is essentially slave labour (where else are they going to work anyway) while cutting all those nasty programs that smack of socialism. We can then use the money we save on those to fund the war! Brilliant. Furthermore, if any of those people starve or die of easily curable illnesses, all the better. They were only a drain on the country after all. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/25 "2005-11-30T17:29:39Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Why do we have to bend or ignore facts to argue that Saddam was a monster in _all_ ways? Why aren’t his corruption, his construction of a brutal police state and his murder of his own people sufficient? Good point. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/26 "2005-11-30T20:56:23Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Why do we have to bend or ignore facts to argue that Saddam was a monster in _all_ ways? Why aren’t his corruption, his construction of a brutal police state and his murder of his own people sufficient? Because saying “he was an asshole leader” isn’t usually considered sufficient grounds for an invasion by a foreign superpower? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/27 "2005-11-30T21:01:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Because saying “he was an asshole leader” isn’t usually considered sufficient grounds for an invasion by a foreign superpower? Especially when _you_ act like an asshole once you take over. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/28 "2005-12-01T00:46:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Because saying “he was an asshole leader” isn’t usually considered sufficient grounds for an invasion by a foreign superpower? “He was an asshole leader who buggered the economy” is no better in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/29 "2005-12-01T03:01:44Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The conclusion to draw from this is that Saddam actually cared about the economy - perhaps not for humanistic reasons, but more because it gave him more power etc. It was the wars and sanctions that screwed up the economy, not the intentional / negligent actions of Saddam against the economy per se, so I don’t think you can make a case that for his “crush[ing] a country’s collective wealth”. He would have loved to keep the economy going - more power and cash skimmed off for him. You know… that’s a bit of a disingenuous arguement you’re making, I reckon. I paraphrase… “He might not have been a great guy… but he loved being loved by his people… and if it hadn’t been for those two unfortunate wars with Iran and Kuwait, and all those dreadful unfair sanctions… Saddam would have still been sitting on a great economy and he’d be famous for being a truly great leader…” I disagree entirely. As the old saying goes, most of our problems in life are of our own making. In that context, Saddam Hussein was a world class nasty fucker. He went out of his way to cause warmongering, and death, and chemical attacks and all sort of nasty shit on both his neighbours, and his own peoples. He was a thug and an opportunist and apparently has never travelled outside Iraq in his entire life. Almost every consensus I’ve ever read asserts that such was the seemingly limitless profits brought about through oil exports in the 1970’s that the decade of prosperity enjoyed by Iraq PRIOR to 1980 took place in spite of Saddam Hussein, not because of him. Sure, he would have loved Iraq to regain her former wealth so he could have stayed in the gig for another 20 years - but the bottom line is that by 1992, regaining Iraq’s wealth and staying in the gig were mututally exclusive concepts - regardless of the sanctions. Saddam had fucked his country over good and proper by that stage… good and proper. And the worst was yet to come. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/30 "2005-12-01T09:33:47Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > Sure, President Bush did a fucking awful job justifying the reasons for going into Iraq. Absolutely worst PR job in history. He deserves to be lampooned from pillar to post for it. In hindsight, I would have much preferred that President Bush had simply called it exactly as I wrote above… namely, “We’re going into Iraq because there’s a guy there who’d rather let his country go to hell in a basket than do the right thing by his people. And that’s bad for the entire Middle East. Don’t like it? Fucking stop us…” No, it was just a bad idea. It was hard to use PR to cover that. It’s always a bad idea for a foreign power (particularly one so culturally alien to the locals) to step in to “help”. It essentially always turns into a complete mess. The locals suddenly discover that much as they hate their leader, they hate their Alien Overlords even worse. And whether they are overlords or just trying help is not the point. The US was, at best, inserting the knife to cut out the cancer. Even leaving the question of whether that was the right choice to one side, right now the cancer is gone, the knife is still in there and twisting and until it goes away, the patient will scream. Thinking that the US needs to stay the course till the bombs stop going off is like saying the surgeon needs to keep wriggling the knife round till the bleeding stops. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/31 "2005-12-01T19:02:07Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > You know… that’s a bit of a disingenuous arguement you’re making, I reckon. I paraphrase… “He might not have been a great guy… but he loved being loved by his people… and if it hadn’t been for those two unfortunate wars with Iran and Kuwait, and all those dreadful unfair sanctions… Saddam would have still been sitting on a great economy and he’d be famous for being a truly great leader…” Fuck you for misrepresenting me. Is that the only way you can win an argument? I’m digging up cites about the economy over here to prove a historical point about an evil dictator, explicitly stating that he was an evil and brutal man, I don’t support him in any way and my arguments in no way detract from his moral culpability. You’re putting words into my mouth, saying “you love Saddam and want to have, like, ten million of his babies”. Pathetic. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > I’m not saying this in support of the guy - the fact that he was oppressing his people and slaughtering many of them dramatically counterbalances any actual benefits. > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Why aren’t his corruption, his construction of a brutal police state and his murder of his own people sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/32 "2005-12-01T19:21:14Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Fuck you for misrepresenting me. Is that the only way you can win an argument? I’m digging up cites about the economy over here to prove a historical point about an evil dictator, explicitly stating that he was an evil and brutal man, I don’t support him in any way and my arguments in no way detract from his moral culpability. You’re putting words into my mouth, saying “you love Saddam and want to have, like, ten million of his babies”. Pathetic. Prolly because calling you a “Saddamite” has just been totally done to death. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/33 "2005-12-01T19:46:14Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Fuck you for misrepresenting me. Is that the only way you can win an argument? Of course it is. But you’re misunderstanding what he’s doing: staying the course until total victory in the argument. To admit he was wrong now would undermine the work of all the words he posted, and those words need to know that they weren’t posted in vain. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/34 "2005-12-02T00:55:06Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Fuck you for misrepresenting me. Is that the only way you can win an argument? I’m digging up cites about the economy over here to prove a historical point about an evil dictator, explicitly stating that he was an evil and brutal man, I don’t support him in any way and my arguments in no way detract from his moral culpability. You’re putting words into my mouth, saying “you love Saddam and want to have, like, ten million of his babies”. Pathetic. Oh puh-lease. Spare me the “poor victim” shit. I’ve engaged you in a courteous manner regarding the content of your posts. There is no “winning the arguement” here. That you feel that there is such a thing is indicative of a mindset which is just plain wrong. In an earlier post you provided a link which establishes certain economic timelines in Iraq’s recent history. I paraphrased your post to illustrate that Iraq enjoyed a period of prosperity 1970-1980 in SPITE of Saddam Hussein. There was nothing personal in it all. I discussed the content of your posts and nothing more. > [@Princhester](#): > > It’s always a bad idea for a foreign power (particularly one so culturally alien to the locals) to step in to “help”. It essentially always turns into a complete mess. The locals suddenly discover that much as they hate their leader, they hate their Alien Overlords even worse. And whether they are overlords or just trying help is not the point. > > The US was, at best, inserting the knife to cut out the cancer. Even leaving the question of whether that was the right choice to one side, right now the cancer is gone, the knife is still in there and twisting and until it goes away, the patient will scream. Now, you see Atticus? THAT is good debating. Princhester and I agree on most things but sometimes we don’t. It’s nothing personal when that happens, and more over, just like with World Eater’s earlier posts, I’m more than happy to stand corrected if someone makes an insightful and valid point. As I noted a few days ago regarding World Eater’s prediction of civil war, I sometimes have to concede that other people have made points which are “fair calls” as they say. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells debating with you however Atticus. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976/35 "2005-12-02T04:18:09Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > …Why do we have to bend or ignore facts to argue that Saddam was a monster in _all_ ways? Why aren’t his corruption, his construction of a brutal police state and his murder of his own people sufficient? > [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > You know… that’s a bit of a disingenuous arguement you’re making, I reckon. I paraphrase… “He might not have been a great guy… but he loved being loved by his people… and if it hadn’t been for those two unfortunate wars with Iran and Kuwait, and all those dreadful unfair sanctions… Saddam would have still been sitting on a great economy and he’d be famous for being a truly great leader…”… Real accurate paraphrasing there! Brutal, corrupt, murdering, monster = a truly great leader? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/staying-the-course-saddam-style/332976.md?page=1)