# Stealing: What's the threshold? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657 "2000-08-17T02:48:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/1 "2000-08-17T02:48:26Z")
Is there a moral/ethical/economic threshold before stealing becomes “wrong” (or really wrong)? If I steal a quarter off Bill Gates’ floor, have I committed a significant theft? What if I steal that same quarter out of a homeless blind man’s hat? On the deplorability scale for theft, where are the ends and middle? Surely no one will argue that all thefts are equally wrong. Well, I am assuming that the “wrongness” of a theft is measured at least in part by the effects of the theft. I think this is a valid assumption. Cites from philosophers and/or prominent religious works would be awesome. [sub]And now the sin in my heart…[/sub] The other week I was in the computer lab at the (large) company where I worked. They IT people were putting in a ton of new computers, and they had this big box of about 25 spiffy new OEM ethernet cards. (Badass 3Com 3905B-TXNM, retail about $75.) They were just sitting there in that box. It was 7pm, and everyone but me was gone for the day. I sat there for about 20 minutes, seriously thinking about stealing one. The _only_ thing that held me back was the slight chance that I would get caught, and that a $75 card wasn’t worth hosing any future I might have at the company. But damn was I ever tempted. This is what got me thinking. Ok, so would it have been a significant (or wrong) theft for me to take this ethernet card from this multi-billion dollar company? (They wouldn’t have missed it, I can tell you that.) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/2 "2000-08-17T03:03:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neuroman \* > \*\*Is there a moral/ethical/economic threshold before stealing becomes “wrong” (or really wrong)? If I steal a quarter off Bill Gates’ floor, have I committed a significant theft? What if I steal that same quarter out of a homeless blind man’s hat? > Cites from philosophers and/or prominent religious works would be awesome. > > \*\* Stealing of any amount is wrong. Period. Stealing is the act of taking something that rightfully belongs to someone else. Why would it not be incorrect just because it’s a small amount? So, yes. If you stole a quarter from Bill Gates, that’s wrong. This too, (if you couldn’t have guessed), is the position of Jewish law. Even stealing a penny is wrong. (Before you all jump on me, I’m not talking in cases of stealing to survive, or other extenuating circumstances.) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/3 "2000-08-17T04:22:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neuroman \* > \*\*Is there a moral/ethical/economic threshold before stealing becomes “wrong” (or really wrong)? It is a continuous scale. Stealing a quarter is not as bad as stealing $100, which in turn is not as bad as stealing $10,000. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t all wrong. > [@](#): > > Well, I am assuming that the “wrongness” of a theft is measured at least in part by the effects of the theft. I think this is a valid assumption. I agree. For every theft, there is a basic wrongness that depends only on the fact that something was stolen, and is independant of the efffect of the theft. So if you steal a quarter from Bill Gates, you’ve done something bad, even if Bill Gates _never_ would have used that quarter. On top of this basic wrongness of stealing, there is the wrongness of the effect. So is a homeless person is unable to buy a roll because you stole a quarter from him, you have the wrongness of stealing, **plus** the wrongness of depriving him of a roll. > [@](#): > > Cites from philosophers and/or prominent religious works would be awesome. Can’t think of anything that specifically mentions this, but the Gospel says that for any given amount, it is more of a sacrifice for a poor person to give it than a rich one. This implies that stealing a certain amount from a poor person is worse than stealing it from a rich person (but wrong in both cases). > [@](#): > > Ok, so would it have been a significant (or wrong) theft for me to take this ethernet card from this multi-billion dollar company? (They wouldn’t have missed it, I can tell you that.) Earlier you said that you believe that the effect that a theft has affects how bad it is, right? So what would be the effect of stealing one of these cards? More security, higher prices for consumers, and a more suspicious (and therefore much less pleasent) workplace. Look at it another way: not only would you be stealing, but you would be breaking the company’s trust in you. The company could have strict security protocols, with only certain people being trusted with merchandise. Do you really want to work for a company like that? Aren’t you glad that they respect you, rather than treating their employees like children? There is an implicit contract here: they won’t make you go through a bunch of hoops just to move around your own workplace, and you don’t steal anything. It isn’t an issue of just theft, but also of trust. Sorry if this sounds preachy. But you did ask for our views. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/4 "2000-08-17T12:52:38Z")
It’s wrong. But the degree of its “wrongness” depends on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/5 "2000-08-17T14:51:05Z")
I think I would state it thusly: All theft is wrong because you are infringing on another’s property rights. There is also a secondary wrong stemming from the act, that of doing harm to another. You may do no harm by your theft, and thus be free from wrong on that part, but you have still committed the basic wrong of theft. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/6 "2000-08-17T15:59:50Z")
“A poor man must hang for stealing a loaf of bread, but a prince who steals a whole country is proclaimed statesman of the year” – Chuang Tzu ---
**Author:** ![SoMoMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@SoMoMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoMoMom)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/7 "2000-08-17T16:18:54Z")
Well, since we’re not discussing any kind of punishment, just the “wrongness”, I think that calling stealing a quarter from Bill Gates “a little bit wrong” is like calling a woman that just found out she was going to have a baby “a little bit pregnant”. Wrong is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a88e57/32.png) [@zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zero)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/8 "2000-08-17T16:25:17Z")
Probably the most moral thing to do is steal a relatively insignificant amount from a very rich individual and redistribute that amount to a large population of poor people. Many people like this Robin Hood strategy of morality, and it’s similar to the old “tax and spend” Democratic policies. Of course, since most moral laws are proclaimed and decided on by the powerful (read: wealthy), theft is usually considered one of the worse deeds. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/9 "2000-08-17T16:25:53Z")
I agree with many of hte other posters in this argument. The question of whether it is wrong is not up for debate: it is. The degree of damage it does to the victim, however, is more a suitable debate topic. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/10 "2000-08-17T16:31:02Z")
question back at you: why is the degree of “wrongness” based on the other end??? my behavior is judged by what I do, isn’t it?? so, if stealing is a wrongful act, “justifying” it by saying “they don’t need it, they won’t notice it” or whatever, is simply justification. I mean you ARE looking for philisophical basis, right, not legal. and, as far as legal… in the state of Michigan, often the “value” of the object stolen is not the relevant topic, so, yes, I have seen folks prosecuted for the felony “larceny from a building” where the item was less than 1, and another guy who got two counts of it 'cause he took two 20 bills (though they were from different purses, that may have been the deciding factor, hard to tell) ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/11 "2000-08-17T16:31:45Z")
Exactly. It is wrong. But, so are littering and jaywalking. The issue is the degree. This was already covered somewhat by people [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=32618) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/12 "2000-08-17T18:05:24Z")
From my bestest bud Mary Prankster: “Rip off the wrong people and they send you to jail Rip off the right people and they say you show initiative” It’s still theft regardless. It cheapens your own dignity to stoop to that level. Even if it’s stealing for survival persons doing that have damaged their own self-respect to get there. The Mighty Mighty Bosstones have a song called “Nevermind Me” in which the victim of a mugging spends the recovery feeling sorry for the mugger. “He seemed to hate what he was doing He sure knew how to get it done” and “And I’ll feel better in the morning The pain will fade as time goes by What was taken I won’t miss or I’ll replace Nevermind me. I’m all right” Caveat: The are degrees of how bad you should feel about theft. It’s a bad thing to steal from Bill Gates but to steal from a poor man who’s panhandling? That’s just shameful. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2000, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/13 "2000-08-17T23:32:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ptahlis \* > \*\*I think I would state it thusly: All theft is wrong because you are infringing on another’s property rights. There is also a secondary wrong stemming from the act, that of doing harm to another. You may do no harm by your theft, and thus be free from wrong on that part, but you have still committed the basic wrong of theft. \*\* Yes, I think you have gotten to the nub of it here. Of course as **The Ryan** points out, there could be other wrongs as well - such as violating the trust of an individual or group. I hesitate to call the other wrongs “secondary” however, because in many cases the violation of trust is worse than the actual act of theft. **SoMoMom** , IMO wrong is not a simple polar issue. There are definite shades of grey (or black or whatever.) This seems to be the general consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/14 "2000-08-18T02:24:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*question back at you: > why is the degree of “wrongness” based on the other end??? > \*\* According to the Utilitarian view of ethics (promoted by John Stuart Mill and Bertrand Russell, among others), actions have no intrinsic moral value. Their morality is determined by their effect. Those actions that lead to the greatest good are the most ethical, and those are the actions we should attempt to engage in. I’m not promoting Utilitarianism, but it is a reasonable and established school of thought that offers a pretty defensible answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![SueFriendly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5e9695/32.png) [@SueFriendly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SueFriendly)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/15 "2000-08-18T17:39:26Z")
Where does budget padding come into the picture? Example: Ijust finished writing up a small budget proposal asking for 20K. Just found out company made 20M with a stock sale— should I have asked for 40K? We do need the money…and they need up too spend it. Too late to change it now, but my supoervisor is berating me (mildly) for my inability to pad a budget… and is SDMB on company time stealing too? If we recognize that stealing is wrong-- all of us here who use our company computers for personal web browsing— all of us who get paid for eight productive hours and only are productive for three (five, six, one, etc.)–then are we all morally corrupt because we we do things that are wrong (stealing) without even the teeniest guilt? How do we even define what is right or wrong? I’d be hard pressed to think of one day where I didn’t do something wrong? So if being wrong is so normal–then how can being wrong be wrong (reverse logic). I rarely rob banks (very wrong) but I steal computer time every day (doesn’t feel wrong). Just some thoughts so consider … Are there any people here who do not steal (in the purest definition of stealing)? Sue Hey-- wasn’t that a dumb song on the radio “Wrong-ra-wrong-Wrong-WRONG!” No wait that was _thong_. ---
**Author:** ![TampaFlyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@TampaFlyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TampaFlyer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealing-whats-the-threshold/29657/16 "2000-08-18T21:29:09Z")
I wanna know how you got into Bill Gates’ house. 😉