# Stealth Biplanes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239 "2007-06-24T21:21:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/21 "2007-06-25T10:19:39Z")
[QUOTE=si\_blakely] Is it true that LearJets had such a low radar return that they had to be fitted with transponders? [/quote] No, they had to be fitted with transponders because they are typically flown in congested airspace and on instrument flight plans. Even where not required by law most airplanes have transponders these days. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/22 "2007-06-25T11:16:00Z")
The AN- Colt still suffers from a critical flaw: That big ol’ unshielded engine. It’s small target, but hardly stealth. [QUOTE=engineer\_comp\_geek] Some guy landed a little Cessna in Red Square during the 80’s. It may not be perfect stealth, but hey, if it can get you into the heart of the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war, it can’t be all that bad. I think it was a Cessna that crashed into the White House in the 90’s, also. How many F-117’s can say they penetrated Red Square? How many enemy military fighters have a proven record of being able to hit the White House? [/QUOTE] How many enemy fighters have ever tried? Answer: None. Those Cesnas weren’t stealthy, they were flown Nap of the Earth over part of their course, and through congested traffic areas in other parts of their flight. That’s not stealth, that’s just smart (?) flying. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/23 "2007-06-25T11:44:49Z")
As already noted, old planes weren’t “stealthy” in the not-reflecting-radar sense, but they could fly very low and not in the way you’d expect from more modern planes. In Harry Turtledove’s _World War_ series, the embattled humans end up with biplanes flying after all their more modern planes are shot down by the alien enemy, who have radar. The biplanes can fly low and through cover, avoiding the radar that found and identified their more up-to-date brothers, and they fly more slowly and in unexpected places. It’s not that they were “stealthy” in the radar sense, but that they had different operating parameters and capabilities that their users, like any good tactician, could use to their advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/24 "2007-06-25T12:54:32Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] But is it for sale? [/QUOTE] Everything is for sale ;). More to the point, there are people around with the expertise and knowledge to restore/build a WWII fighter with working arms. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/25 "2007-06-25T15:46:37Z")
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”] Everything is for sale ;). More to the point, there are people around with the expertise and knowledge to restore/build a WWII fighter with working arms. [/QUOTE] Or simply convert your own modern modest performance aircraft for the purpose. After all, that’s what the Tamil Tigers did. Buy, say, a few Cessna Caravanss and instead of cargo and passengers, hang a pair of gun pods from the wings. Needn’t be too fancy - .30 caliber miniguns and a couple thousand rounds of ammo, and you’ve got a poor man’s fighter. Bonus, you can convert back to a passenger/frieght configuration when you’re done. [It’s been done at least once already](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/u-27.htm)… ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/26 "2007-06-25T16:36:03Z")
My Google-Fu fails, but I read a story a couple of years back about drug runners using off-the-shelf carbon-composite kit planes to run drugs from Mexico all the way to Ohio. The planes, flown low and at night, naturally had an extremely low radar profile and were only found out when one of them crashed. Anybody read about this or able to supply a cite where I have so publicly failed? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/27 "2007-06-25T20:29:27Z")
If there are any radar-evasion benefits to World War 1 aircraft, it’s in their [ability to fly at extremely low altitude.](http://www.rustyspell.com/art/REDBARONcover.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/28 "2007-06-25T20:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=engineer\_comp\_geek] Some guy landed a little Cessna in Red Square during the 80’s. It may not be perfect stealth, but hey, if it can get you into the heart of the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war, it can’t be all that bad. [/QUOTE] That was [Mathias Rust](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust). The Wikipedia entry says that his plane was tracked by radar, but the Soviets were leery of shooting down another civilian craft in the wake of KAL 007. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/29 "2007-06-25T20:52:30Z")
OK, try this–graphite-based cords, not wires. Plastic/PVC pipimg for wings. Plastic for wing covers. Ceramic engines. Graphite props. And, since the Mosquito was constructed out of a plywood whose glue had radar-absorbant properties (yes), that in the body. Equip it with an internal bomb-bay. Will it be able to take off from the dictator’s island fortress, & bomb the carrier, unless stopped by the hero? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/30 "2007-06-25T22:08:17Z")
Radar invisibility is more than just cutting out metal. Absence of metal doesn’t make things invisible to radar. After all, radar is used to see raindrops, and they’re pretty nonmetallic. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/31 "2007-06-25T22:09:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] Will it be able to take off from the dictator’s island fortress, & bomb the carrier, unless stopped by the hero? 😉 [/QUOTE] Graphite is not, in and of itself, a stealth material.\* And you still haven’t done away with that pesky metal engine. You’ve reduced the overall signature (but by less than you think), but you’re still visible. Better practice your NOE flying… \*I actually have some personal and direct knowledge of low-obervable materials. No, you may not know the details. Yes, it’s in my Evals and service jacket. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/32 "2007-06-26T05:29:52Z")
Well, if you can´t make it invisible to radar you can make it absorb all the radar energy that it receives. Have you heated a straberry jam muffin on the microwave?, noticed how, the outside seems mildly warm but when you bite into it you feel that it´s filled with liquid magma? Well son, that´s because the strawberry jam absorbed all the microwaves the oven was throwing at it. Radar uses microwaves. You get my drift?. Right now I´m on the final stages of my strawberry jam coated stealth fighter construction program; I have to solve some problems with the RAJ (Radar Absorbing Jam), it tends to run at high mach numbers, but I have a few enslaved scientists working on a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/33 "2007-06-26T08:57:30Z")
Heh, radar jamming. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/34 "2007-06-26T09:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=Baffle] Heh, radar jamming. [/QUOTE] That´s quite smart… Have you considered a career as an enslaved scientist? Great work environment(1), no overtime(2) and excellent salary!(3) 1. You _do_ like dungeons, don´t you? besides I promise not to use the cattle prod more than what it´s strictly necessary. 2. Of course if you´re forced to work 24 hours a day there´s no chance of doing overtime, but I´m trying to fix that somehow. 3. Actually I won´t pay you shit. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/35 "2007-06-26T10:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=Baffle] Heh, radar jamming. [/QUOTE] :smack: ---
**Author:** ![dynamitedave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed655f/32.png) [@dynamitedave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dynamitedave)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/36 "2007-06-26T10:32:27Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] Well, if you can´t make it invisible to radar you can make it absorb all the radar energy that it receives. Have you heated a straberry jam muffin on the microwave?, noticed how, the outside seems mildly warm but when you bite into it you feel that it´s filled with liquid magma? Well son, that´s because the strawberry jam absorbed all the microwaves the oven was throwing at it. Radar uses microwaves. You get my drift?. Right now I´m on the final stages of my strawberry jam coated stealth fighter construction program; I have to solve some problems with the RAJ (Radar Absorbing Jam), it tends to run at high mach numbers, but I have a few enslaved scientists working on a solution. [/QUOTE] Why not try for a 2 in 1? Load bomb bay with jam muffins! Let the enemy radar heat then on the way in, then you can rain strawberry magma death on the landscape. Think of the global warming savings you can make by you not needing to supply any energy to do the heating 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/37 "2007-06-26T11:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent] Even the Tamil Tigers have conducted successful air strikes - using converted civilian aircraft, if memory serves. [/quote] Everything old is new again. Meet Mr [Van Rosen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_von_Rosen) who pulled much the same stunt in 1969 during the Nigerian Civil War using SAAB [MFI-9](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFI-9_Junior)s. [QUOTE=Tranquilis] Or simply convert your own modern modest performance aircraft for the purpose. After all, that’s what the Tamil Tigers did. Buy, say, a few Cessna Caravanss and instead of cargo and passengers, hang a pair of gun pods from the wings. Needn’t be too fancy - .30 caliber miniguns and a couple thousand rounds of ammo, and you’ve got a poor man’s fighter. Bonus, you can convert back to a passenger/frieght configuration when you’re done. It’s been done at least once already… [/QUOTE] Personally I think I’d go with something like an [L-39 Albatros](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_L-39_Albatros) or similar. You could get a pair for a million or so, including accessories and spares, and after you’d wiped out the enemy they’d actually be useful for bombing raids and so on.The Sri Lankans are apparently paying 1.6 billion rupees a piece (~$14.3MM) per MiG, from [here](http://www.dailymirror.lk/2007/05/25/news/05.asp). Which would give an entire fighter wing of used Czech jets for the price of those five MiGs. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239/38 "2007-06-26T14:57:24Z")
Sure, if you were planning on sticking with a dedicated fighter. I was looking at multipe flexibility, use as a fighter, fighter-bomber, and poor-man’s ‘Spooky,’ plus re-use after the fighting is over, but there are about a dozen different ways to skin that cat: [Fouga Magister](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouga_Magister) [Pilatus PC9](http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/tpc9.aspx) [T2 Buckeye](http://www.combataircraft.com/aircraft/tt2c.aspx) [BAE Hawk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Hawk) So on and so forth… Low-to-moderate capability craft either designed with secondary combat roles, or easily enough convertable to such. All you need to do is pick aircraft that are _just_ enough more capable than the Tamil Tiger’s aircraft that they can reliably shoot them down, but cheap enough that Sri Lanka can buy enough to be effective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-biplanes/409239.md?page=1)