# stealth vs swarms of cheap drones **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201 "2015-07-15T01:38:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/81 "2015-07-22T08:59:09Z")
ETA: Coremelt, have you ever been found guilty of turtling the Hive by spamming spore colonies against Banshees? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/82 "2015-07-22T09:21:49Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Radar can likely do better than 20km against stealth fighters and perhaps even the B-2. I didn’t know that, however I suspect it’s cheaper to build a mass grid of networked optical and near visible spectrum spherical cameras than a network of radars every 20 km. I could be totally wrong, it’s just the obvious solution that strikes me as a computer vision / visual effects guy to detect stealth planes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/83 "2015-07-22T10:01:02Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Think about who Israel’s and South Korea’s likely opponents are, and none of them are likely to have advanced anti-stealth radar unless China or Russia sells it to them. Sure the F-35 will be great against developing / poor nations with 40 year old tech, but is that what the US bought it for? You’re saying that we aren’t likely to fight either one of those countries? Seriously, man, get your story straight. In one post you’re saying we’re never going to fight Russia and China, so the F-35 is useless. In the next you’re saying that Iran is getting the S-400 so the F-35 is useless. And now you’re saying that the F-35 may be useful in a war against Iran or North Korea, but I guess that position may only apply if an Israeli or Korean is in the cockpit. > [@](#): > > Quote:“You know that stealth maybe overrated,” Greenert said during a keynote at the Office of Naval Research Naval Future Force Science and Technology Expo. > “I don’t want to necessarily say that it’s over but let’s face it, if something moves fast through the air and disrupts molecules in the air and puts out heat – I don’t care how cool the engine can be – it’s going to be detectable.” > > This is the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Jonathan Greenert saying this. You mean the submariner? It’s pretty clear his comments are referring to the Navy’s strong position in favor of additional tactical EW capabilities. For the last few years, the Navy has basically been saying it needs F-35 plus more Growlers to fight a high-end opponent. The idea that Greenert is saying stealth is useless - which you are generally arguing - is belied by the words that came out of his mouth. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/84 "2015-07-22T10:38:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The idea that Greenert is saying stealth is useless - which you are generally arguing - is belied by the words that came out of his mouth. No I’m not saying stealth is useless, I’m saying it’s over-rated which is exactly what Greenert said. And I’m also saying expecting stealth to still be useful against near peer states for 30 years is foolish. Sure we may or may not see Iran get the S-400 but China doesn’t seem to be in any hurry to arm North Korea, they seem as frustrated by the Nork’s as we are. If Iran does get the S-400 then we’re likely sooner or later to see F-35 vs S-400 since Israel won’t sit back and do nothing if they believe that Iran is breaking the commitments it made in the nuclear agreement. > **[Russia Is Trying To Sell Surface To Air Missile Systems To Iran, Again](https://jalopnik.com/russia-is-trying-to-sell-surface-to-air-missile-systems-1697676074)** > > In what seems like a never-ending quest to find any chance it can get to stick a wrench in the spokes of Western interests, Russia has offered to sell Iran S-300 missile systems. Yes, again. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/85 "2015-07-22T10:55:13Z")
That could indeed turn Israel against the agreement. Oh, wait… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/86 "2015-07-22T14:22:33Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > How much would stealth obviate the need to hug the ground? Do you think stealth aircraft will still do that most of the time? Probably depends more on boring ol’ mission planning than any specific operating concept. For example, a jet’s range is obviously a lot better at higher altitudes, and weapons range is improved by dropping a JDAM/JSOW from medium altitudes. But there may be specific instances when going low is the obvious choice due to threats, even given the trade-offs. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/87 "2015-07-22T20:02:17Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > No, read what I wrote, they are spherical camera’s with a 20 km visual range, so yes the detection range would only be 20km from the edges of the grid, but thats enough range to fire a SAM at an incoming object. 20km detection range of a stealth plane is better than no detection. What sort of SAM, exactly? Radar-guided SAMs will presumably have a hard time getting a lock, if they can at all, and the F-35 and F-22 are supposedly stealthed against IR threats as well. That’s kind of the point of the F-35 stealth; not so much to prevent detection, but prevent a successful targeting lock. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/88 "2015-07-22T20:13:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What sort of SAM, exactly? Radar-guided SAMs will presumably have a hard time getting a lock, if they can at all, and the F-35 and F-22 are supposedly stealthed against IR threats as well. In my hypothetical setup, the optical sensor grid is creating a 3D map of air space and sends the information directly to the SAM while it’s in the air. Remember a SAM doesn’t have to directly strike the aircraft, it explodes nearby and shreds wings and control surfaces with a cloud of debris. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/89 "2015-07-22T20:30:12Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > In my hypothetical setup, the optical sensor grid is creating a 3D map of air space and sends the information directly to the SAM while it’s in the air. Remember a SAM doesn’t have to directly strike the aircraft, it explodes nearby and shreds wings and control surfaces with a cloud of debris. Terminal missile guidance via optical sensor grid? I’d be shocked if it could be done timely or accurately. A stealth jet moving at Mach 1 and a SAM moving at (just guessing) Mach 5 or so are going to close _awfully_ quickly. You’re going to take pictures from 10-20 km away, from several sources, process those images to locate the jet and build a 3D map of the airspace, and then send that information back to the SAM in time to tell it which way to turn to get close enough to kill the juking jet? \I don’t believe you\ ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201/90 "2015-07-23T15:19:14Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > In my hypothetical setup, the optical sensor grid is creating a 3D map of air space and sends the information directly to the SAM while it’s in the air. Remember a SAM doesn’t have to directly strike the aircraft, it explodes nearby and shreds wings and control surfaces with a cloud of debris. And just how will it communicate with the outgoing missile? For that matter how will the sensors communicate with each other? I can pretty much guarantee that if you are being shot at by the USAF or USN that not only will you have to deal with not only their F-35s coming in but their B-52s and Growlers shutting down your RF spectrum, not to mention some tailor made Stuxnet type viruses and trojans, courtesy of the USAF Cybercommand, in your network effectively killing your telecoms. If you are thinking laser, that can also be countered by a Growler with a JDAM. If you emit, you can be detected and if you’re stationary you’re dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stealth-vs-swarms-of-cheap-drones/725201.md?page=4)