# Steam-Powered Cars-Why Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 26, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926 "2002-07-26T13:22:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/121 "2002-08-18T19:21:24Z")
- - - 295 lbs is a lot for a 95 shp engine: a regular complete beetle engine is somewhere around 180 lbs for 75-80 hp. High-performance parts can put out 130 hp+ without very much additional weight. - The following page gives some hp and weight figures for aircraft-use beetle engines, which are usually detuned to lower powers to boost reliability. They may also have some additional parts not found on a car engine: [http://www.greatplainsas.com/engine.html](http://www.greatplainsas.com/engine.html) ~ ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/122 "2002-08-18T19:52:43Z")
DougC. What you say is true. However 295/90=3.28 lb/shp, which is pretty good for a steam plant. In general steam plants run around 60 lb/shp with light ones considered around 18 or so. A better measure would be to integrate the area under the torque curve and divide that into weight. Reciprocating steam engines have torque maximums at zero or very low RPM and are quite flat. The steam cars I know of that use transmissions have found that one or two gears are adequate. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/123 "2002-08-19T09:14:26Z")
**Doug** , I believe, **heavysteamer** ’s figures include the weight of the condensers and according to the article I have on the Carter steamer, one of the reasons the installation was so heavy was that the car required two condensers due to poor air-flow in the stock radiator location. Why they chose a car with such poor air-flow or didn’t make additional modifications to the car to improve air-flow, I don’t know. However, if the stats about the radiator I posted the link to earlier in this thread are correct, then one of those used in the same car would probably be enough to condense the steam into water and should cut the weight to some degree. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/124 "2002-08-19T15:42:40Z")
TUCKERFAN is right, the weights include the condensers. The first version used 2 brass condensers that weighed 80 pounds total, the second version used an aluminum condenser that weighed 35 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/125 "2002-08-20T11:59:03Z")
There seems to be a persisyent story that English entrepreneurs ran huge steam-powered omnibusses on English roads, in the early 1800’s. One such man (Goldsworthy Gurney) is said to have had a small fleet of steam powered wagans, carrying passengers from Oxford to London. I have seen pictures of these monstrosities, and they were huge! Why did these steam wagons disappear from the English roads? Is these stories are true, England started the automobile business nearly a century before Henry Ford! ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/126 "2002-08-20T12:52:45Z")
Well, what a long thread… I didn’t see this in a perusal, so here it is: [http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt](http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt) Which, breify, says it is possible to run an internal combustion type engine using water and the cooking device from a microwave oven. The superheated water “explodes” enough to power a lawnmower engine in experiments. But the paper is almost ten years old, and AFAIK nothing has happened with it since. Technically, I don’t now if it counts as steam per se, but it is very, very hot water used to run a motive engine. Also, Anthricite’s post reminded me that my dad occasionally told me about coal-powered taxis he encountered in Japan during the Korean War. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/127 "2002-08-20T13:20:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ralph124c \* > \*\*There seems to be a persisyent story that English entrepreneurs ran huge steam-powered omnibusses on English roads, in the early 1800’s. One such man (Goldsworthy Gurney) is said to have had a small fleet of steam powered wagans, carrying passengers from Oxford to London. I have seen pictures of these monstrosities, and they were huge! > Why did these steam wagons disappear from the English roads? Is these stories are true, England started the automobile business nearly a century before Henry Ford! \*\* Some very interesting machines were build in England in the early to middle 1800’s, but were hampered by lack of developments in metallyrgy and machining. Roads were bad, and the machines had to travel on private “turnpikes”. Much money was vested in horsedrawn equipment and a law was passed called “the Red Flag Law” that limited speeds of steam vehicles to walking speed and required a man carrying a red flag to proceed the vehicle. The law was repealed in 1904 and was celebrated with the Glidden run from London to Brighton. This is now an annual tour for veteran vehicles of 1904 and earlier vintage. The book “Steam on Common Roads” by William Fletcher, 1891 (reprinted in 1974) gives a good review of the 1800’s type machines. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/128 "2002-08-20T13:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*Well, what a long thread… I didn’t see this in a perusal, so here it is: > [http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt](http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt) > > Which, breify, says it is possible to run an internal combustion type engine using water and the cooking device from a microwave oven. The superheated water “explodes” enough to power a lawnmower engine in experiments. But the paper is almost ten years old, and AFAIK nothing has happened with it since. > > Technically, I don’t now if it counts as steam per se, but it is very, very hot water used to run a motive engine. > > Also, Anthricite’s post reminded me that my dad occasionally told me about coal-powered taxis he encountered in Japan during the Korean War. \*\* This is related to the developments of a man named Hall, described in “Light Steam Power” about 30 years ago. I believe Mr. Hall did his work not long after WWII. He heated the head (with estended heating surface) of an engine and injected water into the cylinder when the piston was at or near TDC. Bill Ryan, in Illinois, USA worked with this principle in a go-cart for some years. When I talked to him a couple of years ago, he said his engine worked best when the cylinder head was so hot the copper fins had melted. Seems to me that you could also use a lazer to boil the water. ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/129 "2002-08-20T13:52:59Z")
This: [http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt](http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt) says the author made a lawnmower engine run using water and the cooking device from a microwave to produce superheated water that “explodes” in a cylinder with sufficient power to run the engine. What do you all think? Does the fact that it apparently didn’t go anywhere since publication mean it doesn’t work, or that it just didn’t get investors? ---
**Author:** ![Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Milton\_De\_La\_Warre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milton_De_La_Warre)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/130 "2002-08-20T13:58:15Z")
Disregard my last post. I didn’t see it had already gone through. ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/131 "2002-08-20T15:17:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by heavysteamer \* > \*\* > > Now we are entering the real world with respect to actual road performance of available autos. I presume the HF is a pretty special model. I don’t have one or know anybody who does. Now we get to the question: Why no steam cars? Because it would take a lot of money to develop to an adequate level of efficiency, meaning it would have to be a good jump ahead of ic cars. Even if the money was available, I don’t think Detroit has the engineers to do the job. GM tried to build a steam car around 1970. Pontiac Div. built one and Besler Corp. built one. The Besler car was pretty good (It used Doble technology 50 years old at the time), the GM car was a piece of junk. \*\* If you are talking about a production model car that gets 55-60mpg at 60mph, then look no further. My VW Golf TDI (stationwagon) has averaged that for the last 16000 miles. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/132 "2002-08-20T15:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mort Furd \* > \*\* > If you are talking about a production model car that gets 55-60mpg at 60mph, then look no further. My VW Golf TDI (stationwagon) has averaged that for the last 16000 miles. \*\* Yes, I expect that’s true. My sister had a Ford Tempo diesel car about 15 years ago that got 55 to 60 mpg. I wonder why we don’t see these cars everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/133 "2002-08-20T16:55:30Z")
\>\> my dad occasionally told me about coal-powered taxis he encountered in Japan during the Korean War This is probably an entirely different thing and not a steam engine at all. You can run an internal combustion engine with CO gas generated in a gas generator which burns coal with insufficient oxigen. These were also seen in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/134 "2002-08-20T17:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JCHeckler \* > \*\*This: > [http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt](http://amasci.com/freenrg/magputt.txt) > says the author made a lawnmower engine run using water and the cooking device from a microwave to produce superheated water that “explodes” in a cylinder with sufficient power to run the engine. > > What do you all think? Does the fact that it apparently didn’t go anywhere since publication mean it doesn’t work, or that it just didn’t get investors? \*\* I think both. I think it didn’t work (at least very well) and that it didn’t get investors. If you look at item #7: “7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the alternator on line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery. You will see that the battery stays charged even with the lights on and the motor keeps on going.” This describes a perpetual motion machine. Many people are a bit wary of such claims. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/135 "2002-08-30T08:25:24Z")
Bumping this up because I saw something on another message board that relates to this. Apparently, there’s an [engine](http://steamgazette.com/phorum-3.3/read.php4?f=1&i=1239&t=1239) configuration that might yield better results for steamers than commonly used ones. (It also shows promise for desiels as well.) I’ve linked to the beginning of the thread, you’ll have to click through the various replies for all the information. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/136 "2002-09-03T19:12:31Z")
Another bump because apparently [this](http://www.iav.de/) German company is developing a steam powered car that promises to have fuel economies equivilant to a diesel. The site’s in German, but does have English pages, haven’t dug around on it to a great extent yet, but according to a poster on the [steam car](http://steamgazette.com/phorum-3.3/read.php4?f=1&i=1313&t=1313) message board > [@](#): > > Max thermal efficiency is about 24 %, and does not fall below 18 % at low power outputs, and the fuel consumption is calculated to be not higher than a modern turbo - diesel. Weight of power unit is 120 kg (around 250 lb)and power > output at moment is around 45 hp and should be 75 hp when fully developed. Cut-off and torque is variable - so NO gearbox is used. These guys claim to do R&D work for folks like VW so they’re no small operation, if true. ---
**Author:** ![heavysteamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f8ce5/32.png) [@heavysteamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heavysteamer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/137 "2002-09-03T20:32:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Another bump because apparently [this](http://www.iav.de/) German company is developing a steam powered car that promises to have fuel economies equivilant to a diesel. The site’s in German, but does have English pages, haven’t dug around on it to a great extent yet, but according to a poster on the [steam car](http://steamgazette.com/phorum-3.3/read.php4?f=1&i=1313&t=1313) message board These guys claim to do R&D work for folks like VW so they’re no small operation, if true. \*\* I have had some correspondence with this company regarding investment. Right now they are not interested in small investments (say less than a million dollars) which leads me to believe either they are not a scam or are only after big fish. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/138 "2003-02-26T20:49:32Z")
Just stumbled across [this discussion](http://www.steamautomobile.com/ForuM/read.php?f=1&i=474&t=474) on the subject. As you can see, even folks with experience with steam cars, who’re throwing numbers and formulas all over the place can’t conclusively pin it down. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/139 "2003-05-02T04:51:19Z")
In the May issue of _Popular Mechanics_, Jay Leno talks about his Doble steam car. He doesn’t mention the fuel economy, but he gives the following info about the car: It has a 2 _million_ BTU flame, a four cylinder compound engine, puts out 1,000 lb of torque, and, he had it ran through the emissions tests in CA, and found that the car puts out 13 parts per million, which means, according to him, that the car meets _current_ emission standards in one of the strictist states in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926/140 "2003-05-04T21:42:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*In the May issue of _Popular Mechanics_, Jay Leno talks about his Doble steam car. He doesn’t mention the fuel economy, but he gives the following info about the car: > > It has a 2 _million_ BTU flame, a four cylinder compound engine, puts out 1,000 lb of torque, and, he had it ran through the emissions tests in CA, and found that the car puts out 13 parts per million, which means, according to him, that the car meets _current_ emission standards in one of the strictist states in the US. \*\* There was another issue of PM in July 99’ where Jay talked about how much he loved the high torque of his steam car. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steam-powered-cars-why-not/120926.md?page=8)