# Stellar Parallax and the Wise Men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2001, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892 "2001-07-02T00:12:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2001, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/21 "2001-07-03T22:55:02Z")
> [@](#): > > the star which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. Is this quote less ambiguous in the original Greek? I’ve seen a lot of folks interpret this to mean that the star (whatever it was) was in the eastern sky. On the other hand, I had always supposed that it meant that back when the wise men were in the East (where they came from), they saw a star in some unspecified place in the heavens. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/22 "2001-07-03T23:19:21Z")
Listen people! The point is not that the wise men TRAVELLED, it’s that TIME passed. That’s my point. The point indeed is that those wandering magi could see the relative position of the conjunction CHANGE over a period of TIME(as the night passed). I’m not seriously arguing that the Magi’s change in position actually caused the change of the position of the star. Isn’t that just a little ludicrous. Unfortunately this song “We Three Kings” has polluted our minds and removed the actual story from the debate. In Matt, it is not saying necessarily that the star was sailing around the sky like some kind of super-luminescent kite! As for the east thing… The Greek has some problems. There are two words for east… roughly anatole and anatolai. While anatolai is strictly translated as EAST in Greek, anatolai has two meanings. One is EAST and the other is the Heliacal Arising. That is, the morning star. (This, of course, is not a star, but a planet, but the ancients didn’t make a distinction between celestial objects. They called them all “stars” so to speak. Thus we can talk about other possiblities other than mammoth balls of plasmatic fusion-powered in hydrostatic equilibrium). Well Matthew 2 is kind enough to give us the following… "Wise Men came from the East (anatolai)… said, “we saw his star in the East (anatole).” Now why would the writer of Matt. switch between anatolai and anatole as he did? One possibility is he’s tiring of the drudgery of writing gospel. The other possibility is he’s referring to the strict astrological definition of anatole in the second sense… actually contrasting it with the anatolai (East) of where the magi came from. I’m inclined to accept this explanation for the following reason. Why, if these wise men saw the star in the East… and they were from the East… did these Magi get so scared that they turn 180 degrees and march off to Palestine? Makes no sense, unless they’re looking at the prophecy that when the King Star (Jupiter) and the Birth Star (Saturn) were in conjunction in the Israelite Zodiacal sign (Pisces) there is something monumental happening in the Levant. So they head off to Jerusalem, and well, read the rest. I think it’s a pretty convincing theory… ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/23 "2001-07-04T00:24:42Z")
> [@](#): > > quoth JS Preston Why, if these wise men saw the star in the East… and they were from the East… did these Magi get so scared that they turn 180 degrees and march off to Palestine? Simple answer: Both you and **Elucidator** got it fairly much right. “So I suspect that the legend of following a star as a bright object in the sky derives from a misunderstanding. The “wise men” knew that something major was going to happen, likely suspected it was a birth. How they might have determined that Nazareth was the place to be? Not a clue, but there still remains any number of arcane astrological traditions for divining locations, directions, etc.” This is fairly much spot on. From Matthew 2: > [@](#): > > After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.” In other words they knew that someone important had been born, probably because of a certain star in a certain place in the eastern sky. There is no mention at this stage of the Magi having followed a star anywhere. A star in that constellation was simply a portent of a noble birth in Jerusalem and they followed a map to get to Herod’s palace in that city. They probably assumed before arriving that it was Herod’s son. > [@](#): > > When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born. “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written So Herod now calls together all his wise men and they tell him that if the Magi are correct and the boy has been born then prophecy says he is in Bethlehem. > [@](#): > > Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.” After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. Herod finds out how old the child is by asking the Magi when the star appeared. At this stage he was probably 12 months or older. The Magi know from Herod and his wise men the child is in Bethlehem and set off in that direction. Notice it also doesn’t say that the star is in the east, rather that it is the same star that the Magi saw when they were in the east. At this stage they are travelling south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. Only when they’re on the outskirts of Bethlehem does the star need to ‘move’ at all to point out a particular house. _**So the star only needed to be apparent for 5 hours at the most and lead them no more than 10 kilometres (it’s only about 8kms from Jerusalem to Bethlehem). How low could it be then?**_ > [@](#): > > In Matt, it is not saying necessarily that the star was sailing around the sky like some kind of super-luminescent kite! > > and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Since it led them to a specific house in Bethlehem it would have to have been hovering in the sky very much like a kite. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/24 "2001-07-04T06:20:34Z")
and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Talk about into the ground, but here we go… place is not house. house is not place. place does and often will mean the general location (such as Bethlehem). Saying that the star rested above the house itself would be akin to saying that the object was no more than ten feet above the roof… otherwise an observer could circle the house and see this star above some other building. I know there are those out there that think there was this “MIRACULOUS” star that was above the house no matter where you stood in the whole town of Bethlehem. Believe me, if such a thing were to have happened, it would be a true UFO (esp. 2000 years ago). Wow! That must be it! JESUS arrived via spaceship. Virgin birth EAT your heart out! ---
**Author:** ![utsi15](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e79b87/32.png) [@utsi15](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/utsi15)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/25 "2001-07-04T07:36:06Z")
i don’t think this really helps, but jesus wasnt born in the winter, he was born in the spring. Christmas is in december because of the pagan holidays. the missionaries to the pagens invented christmas to match the pagen…um… celebrations. and sence easter was already near christ’s birth they didnt need another christian holiday there so the made it in the winter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/26 "2001-07-04T14:19:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > [@](#): > > As it happens, there was a dramatic set of astrological alignments in the early spring of 6 b.c.e. > > Citation, please? Well, that would be an astrological ephemerides, a book, as I’m sure you know, that gives astrological data for any given time. Some years back, an ephermerides covering the years 2000 b.c.e. to 2000 c.e. became available. I began poking about over the years of Jesus’ presumed birth and came across a very dramatic astrological pattern in early spring of 6 b.c.e. Now, the cited conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn are not all that uncommon: unusual, to be sure, but not enough to get “magoi” to leap upon thier camels and start humping it to Palestine. And the pattern itself would mean little to someone not versed in astrological arcana. Were I to offer you a cite, most likely it would mean very little to you. > [@](#): > > _As “wise men”, very likely of Babylonian origin or education they would have plenty of time to travel to any likely location, say, Nazareth._ > > The account I have says they made the trip in two weeks, roughly. And that they were not given months to plan. Cite? And the months to plan is quite my point: the Babylonians had long since progressed from observational astronomy to calculated: they knew quite some time before the actual event that the event would occur. > [@](#): > > Better story or not, you’ve yet to provide evidence for your account:) > > In the OP, BTW, I suggested that we stick to what we “know” to be true rather than speculation without provided facts to back them up. Alas, I have other things planned for today, take nap, smell gardenias, pressing matters not to be postponed. Ordinarily, of course, I would leap to do the bidding of any self-appointed SDMB arbiter, but in this situation you will have to be content with my invitation to arbite me. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/27 "2001-07-04T15:16:08Z")
This is a repost from a [previous SDMB thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=2713) about this, which was a response to a [mailbag column](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mstarofbeth.html): > [@](#): > > Imagine that you are an ancient astrologer, in the evening of late summer of 1BC, and you are watching the bright planet Mars in the east as it turns retrograde to pass through Pisces. Pisces is regarded as the zodiacal sign where evidence of the messiah will appear. Mars will be at opposition in Pisces in mid-September, and at its brightest (magnitude -2.5). In that dark area of the sky, there are only a small number of stars brighter than sixth magnitude, and as Mars slowly backtracks through it, you notice that there is one new star, about magnitude 5.7. It is not on your charts, and even more amazingly, it is moving, and also moving west! It continues to move west through the month of November, as Mars returns to prograde and passes by it less than a degree away. The new star continues its westward journey. > > No planets are so dim, and it is clearly not a comet, and no other stars move. Your colleagues are convinced it is a sign and decide to follow the star west towards Jerusalem. You arrive in early December, and the star seems to have stopped, and stood still. For two weeks, it stays within an area of the sky of less than one arcminute in radius, after having spent the previous four months moving almost 240 arcminutes–about the width of the full moon every two weeks. After your conversation with the king, you observe the star that evening. It is nearly directly south, and you follow it to Bethlehem. > > In the next month, the star vanishes in the sunlight, and is not found again for centuries. Of course, it wasn’t really a star, but a planet: Uranus. > > Kinda interesting, don’t you think? [More links](http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/xmasstar.htm) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/28 "2001-07-04T16:04:19Z")
Indeed, interesting, but is Uranus visible to the naked eye? ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/29 "2001-07-04T16:31:36Z")
elucidator: right, Jupiter and Saturn conjunctions are not extremely rare, but when they occur in Piscese… that’s pretty rare. That’s what the interest was in… not just the conjunction but the zodiacal sign that it occurred in. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/30 "2001-07-04T20:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Indeed, interesting, but is Uranus visible to the naked eye? \*\* Uranus varies some in brightness, but at 5.7 it would indeed be naked eye, especially to astrologers before light pollution. Magnitude 6 is the traditional limit for naked eye observation. That particular constellation would have been analyzed and studied in great detail, too, and with Mars in the picture even more attention would have focussed upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/31 "2001-07-05T13:44:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RM Mentock \* > Uranus varies some in brightness, but at 5.7 it would indeed be naked eye, especially to astrologers before light pollution. Magnitude 6 is the traditional limit for naked eye observation. That particular constellation would have been analyzed and studied in great detail, too, and with Mars in the picture even more attention would have focussed upon it. True, but at mag +5.7, Uranus is still a very difficult object to see. Being so far from the sun, Uranus moves slowly and does not dramatically change position agains the background stars like the inner planets. Basically, you have to know what to look for. Although it might have been spotted (insert dirty joke here), Uranus was not officially discovered until [1781 by William Herschel](http://www.seds.org/billa/tnp/uranus.html) using a telescope. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/32 "2001-07-05T19:53:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > **True, but at mag +5.7, Uranus is still a very difficult object to see. Being so far from the sun, Uranus moves slowly and does not dramatically change position agains the background stars like the inner planets. Basically, you have to know what to look for.** It’s less difficult in truly dark skies. And, as I said, that particular area is lacking in stars, and it would have been well-mapped even back then, and they would have been ovserving it closely because of the presence of Mars. Uranus movement, even during retrograde, is significant. Even Pluto moves a minute a day. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892/33 "2001-07-05T20:47:48Z")
Quoth **elucidator** : > [@](#): > > Well, that would be an astrological ephemerides, a book, as I’m sure you know, that gives astrological data for any given time. What alignments actually occured is fairly easy to verify. The tricky part is showing that those alignments would have carried the significance attributed to them. May I add, by the way, that **JS Princeton** ’s comments about “east” in Greek clear things up greatly for me. It would make an awful lot of sense for the Wise Men to say that they saw a star at its heliacal rising. Of course, later generations of translators might not have been aware of the astronomical significance of the term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stellar-parallax-and-the-wise-men/70892.md?page=1)