Stem Cell medical technology. Is this even possible? Scam?

Great Debates
81

I, and several others I know personally, have had one or two autologous stem cell treatments each and I would be genuinely interested in sharing our experiences.

This is leading-edge technology in its early stages so there will be a lot to learn along the way and it, like all new paradigms, will be assailed mercilessly by all the bots until it is finally accepted as self-evident, after much unnecessary suffering.

Meanwhile, dispassionate, rational, discourse can be hard to find. I invite you to get in touch if you like. I may answer a few honest questions here but I will not participate in trying to prove or disprove anything in this forum.

82

This sort of self flagellation is completely unnecessary. IF a treatment works, it’s a straightforward, though admittedly expensive, thing to prove it. Wonderful amazing medical technologies are NOT being held back because the stodgy ol’ powers that be are unable to wrap their heads around the new paradigm shift. When people begin to resort to those types of claims, it’s pretty much guaranteed that they do so because the treatment DOESN’T WORK. If it does, it can be proven. If it doesn’t, then all sorts of fanciful excuses need to be invented to hide that fact.

83

At what clinic is your therapy taking place, and what procedures are you undergoing?
Have the procedures used been published in any peer-reviewed journals?

84

Are you saying that you will only exchange information through email? If you give me information through email, am I allowed to talk about it in this forum?

85

I am very glad that you’re feeling better. But I wonder if you would answer a question for me: how is it that medical knowledge advances at all, if “the bots” assail *all *new medical breakthroughs “mercilessly”?

Why is it that, say, the skin cell gun has had grants and studies and news coverage and continues to be researched? I mean, that’s a pretty far out there idea for curing second degree burns. It sounds like total bizarre quackery. And yet, the bots aren’t assailing it mercilessly. The kinks aren’t all worked out, it’s only been used successfully on a couple handfuls of patients, but it’s still garnering a lot of interest from legitimate medical professionals. Why aren’t They scoffing at it, but they scoff at this particular stem cell procedure?

The answer I would put forth is that your assumption that They try to stop all new and innovative treatments is simply wrong. They are actually very interested in new and innovative treatments…as long as those treatments seem promising. As long as a researcher can propose a likely mechanism of action and demonstrate - in an open manner to other trained professionals - how the therapy can and does work on even a small number of people, then They keep their minds open and the research flowing.

While the calls in this thread have been for repeated large scale double blind placebo controlled studies, I warrant we don’t even really need that much. Find as much openly shared well documented (that means by medical professionals, not patients themselves) information on a double handful of patients who have successfully been treated with this therapy, and minds will stay open enough to at least look for further developments.

The fact that this “stem cell” technology can’t provide evidence on par with the mere dozen patients that have been helped with the skin cell gun tells me something. It tells me that there isn’t any such evidence, and it’s not because of Them, The Medical Establishment, it’s because the fraudulent doctors selling this stem cell therapy are intent on misleading the public and the medical establishment for as long as possible.

86

Update: I emailed the same day exborg posted this.
No response at all.

87

To be quite honest, unless the doctor that is proposing some form of stem cell procedure is not allied with a very small handful of research programs, chances are it is pretty much a scam.

I am a medical guinea pig, and there are stem cell research projects going on, but they are quite specific in the patients they admit to the programs and they screen their candidates through other medical groups. Typically, if I were to get accepted in one for [fore example] diabetes, my endocrinologist would propose me to the research group because I fit very very VERY specific criteria. I got in to see one of the top Parkinsons researchers in the country because my regular neurologist was his university roommate … though I admit I wasn’t trying to get into the program, my neuro wanted him to check me out. So unless your regular doctor has an in with a research group, it is most likely a scam.

88

In my first post, I pointed out that various branches of the government were active in prosecuting this organization for criminal malfeasance. Do you have any reason to distrust the government’s ability to discern a crook from a doctor?

89

Weird email just received:

I am very glad that you’re feeling better. But I wonder if you would answer a question for me: how is it that medical knowledge advances at all, if “the bots” assail all new medical breakthroughs “mercilessly”?

Why is it that, say, the skin cell gun has had grants and studies and news coverage and continues to be researched? I mean, that’s a pretty far out there idea for curing second degree burns. It sounds like total bizarre quackery. And yet, the bots aren’t assailing it mercilessly. The kinks aren’t all worked out, it’s only been used successfully on a couple handfuls of patients, but it’s still garnering a lot of interest from legitimate medical professionals. Why aren’t They scoffing at it, but they scoff at this particular stem cell procedure?

The answer I would put forth is that your assumption that They try to stop all new and innovative treatments is simply wrong. They are actually very interested in new and innovative treatments…as long as those treatments seem promising. As long as a researcher can propose a likely mechanism of action and demonstrate - in an open manner to other trained professionals - how the therapy can and does work on even a small number of people, then They keep their minds open and the research flowing.

While the calls in this thread have been for repeated large scale double blind placebo controlled studies, I warrant we don’t even really need that much. Find as much openly shared well documented (that means by medical professionals, not patients themselves) information on a double handful of patients who have successfully been treated with this therapy, and minds will stay open enough to at least look for further developments.

The fact that this “stem cell” technology can’t provide evidence on par with the mere dozen patients that have been helped with the skin cell gun tells me something. It tells me that there isn’t any such evidence, and it’s not because of Them, The Medical Establishment, it’s because the fraudulent doctors selling this stem cell therapy are intent on misleading the public and the medical establishment for as long as possible.
[/quote]

90

much the same message was posted by a newbie in this thread and is now gone. It was between posts 87 and 88, iirc.

91

Oh, hey, man, thanks for taking my messages for me…
No, seriously, weird. And I haven’t gotten anything, either by PM or at the email address I use here. :confused:

92

I got the same PM, but the user who sent it has been banned. Some weird scam spam, no doubt.

93

First a disclaimer. I am a stem cell writer/author/advocate. While you may think this means I have an agenda (I do, to help patients get better), I am very careful to site real data sources for my info. My “opinions” are based on science. [For example, I am uninterested in embryonic stem cells because they will not produce treatments for decades, they cause cysts and tumors and they require immunosuppressive drugs.]

Many of my sources are from my own blog so if you find this too self-referential or if you find any data lacking on a specific subject, please ask and I will tell you where I got my original data from. Please feel free to comment on my blog. It is an open forum on the benefits of adult stem cell treatments. I welcome all intelligent and rational communication and my site is not monetized so I make no money if you go there, comment or otherwise.

Ok, there’s a lot of misinformation on this thread. Let’s clear it up.

ADULT STEM CELLS or ASC (via)
SOURCE/DERIVED FROM•comes from blood, umbilical cords, bone marrow, placenta fat tissue, muscle, nasal neurological, breast milk, menstruation, dental pulp, lungs, eyes, brain and many more
PURPOSE IN BODY•they are the body’s natural healing cells
OBSTACLES+SIDE EFFECTS•virtually zero side negative effects, many positive side effects
TREATMENT HISTORY•used in bone marrow transplants to treat cancer for 40 years, can currently treat 130+ diseases safely and effectively (CP, MS, Autism, Diabetes, CHF, PAD, etc)

Blood derived stem cells are a very valid source of stem cells and many treatment centers and clinical trials using blood derived stem cells for years with extremely positive results. The first stem cell treatment center in the world generated significant therapeutic benefit for over 62% of their congestive heart failure patients. These are called no option CHF patients because their only recourse is a heart transplant. 62% of “no option” CHF patients derived significant therapuetic benefit, sometimes doubling their Ejection Fractions (amount of blood pumped out by the heart). But this is anecdotal, let’s talk data.

What data is their showing that stem cell treatments work?
Anecdotal and 10’s of thousands of patients treated aside…as of late 2009, according to the National Institutes of Health, there were and are ~2600 stem cell clinical trials around the world – http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/
Of those ~2600, there are ~2591 mentions of adult stem cells.
Of those ~2591, about half of them (~1300) are actual adult stem cell clinical trials.

Currently, as of today, there are 3,989 clinical trials under keyword search “stem cell” illustrating the safety and efficacy of utilizing stem cells to treat chronic and terminal diseases. Many are from reputable colleges and hospitals around the world, some in the US like Duke U., Northwestern, etc.

How about for Autism? (I apologize, my data has not kept current but as of late 2009)
https://repairstemcell.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/stem-cells-for-autism/
and https://repairstemcell.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/potential-of-stem-cell-treatments-for-autism/

Please also look at the 29,500 scholarly papers submitted on “stem cell” plus “autism” minus embryonic:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=autism&as_epq=stem+cell&as_oq=&as_eq=embryonic&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C39&as_vis=1

As for Dr Mitrani, I’ve done some research. Mitrani’s site makes no guarantees and he is very specific in saying stem cells are not a cure. The 60 Minutes Expose was about Dr Kulper who has no affiliation with Dr Mitrani and Mitrani never went to Guatemala to coerce school children into getting treatments.

I will post this a few other places so people can base their opinions on fact, not emotional reaction. Thanks for the opportunity to present my thoughts.

94

First a disclaimer. I am a stem cell writer/author/advocate. While you may think this means I have an agenda (I do, to help patients get better), I am very careful to site real data sources for my info. My “opinions” are based on science. [For example, I am uninterested in embryonic stem cells because they will not produce treatments for decades, they cause cysts and tumors and they require immunosuppressive drugs.]

Many of my sources are from my own blog so if you find this too self-referential or if you find any data lacking on a specific subject, please ask and I will tell you where I got my original data from. Please feel free to comment on my blog. It is an open forum on the benefits of adult stem cell treatments. I welcome all intelligent and rational communication and my site is not monetized so I make no money if you go there, comment or otherwise.

Ok, there’s a lot of misinformation out there. Let’s clear it up.

ADULT STEM CELLS or ASC - Private Site
SOURCE/DERIVED FROM•comes from blood, umbilical cords, bone marrow, placenta fat tissue, muscle, nasal neurological, breast milk, menstruation, dental pulp, lungs, eyes, brain and many more
PURPOSE IN BODY•they are the body’s natural healing cells
OBSTACLES+SIDE EFFECTS•virtually zero side negative effects, many positive side effects
TREATMENT HISTORY•used in bone marrow transplants to treat cancer for 40 years, can currently treat 130+ diseases safely and effectively (CP, MS, Autism, Diabetes, CHF, PAD, etc)

For example, blood derived stem cells are a very valid source of stem cells and many treatment centers and clinical trials using blood derived stem cells for years with extremely positive results. The first stem cell treatment center in the world generated significant therapeutic benefit for over 62% of their congestive heart failure patients. These are called no option CHF patients because their only recourse is a heart transplant. 62% of “no option” CHF patients derived significant therapuetic benefit, sometimes doubling their Ejection Fractions (amount of blood pumped out by the heart). But this is anecdotal, let’s talk data.

What data is their showing that stem cell treatments work?
Anecdotal and 10’s of thousands of patients treated aside…as of late 2009, according to the National Institutes of Health, there were and are ~2600 stem cell clinical trials around the world – http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/
Of those ~2600, there are ~2591 mentions of adult stem cells.
Of those ~2591, about half of them (~1300) are actual adult stem cell clinical trials.

Currently, as of today, there are 3,989 clinical trials under keyword search “stem cell” illustrating the safety and efficacy of utilizing stem cells to treat chronic and terminal diseases. Many are from reputable colleges and hospitals around the world, some in the US like Duke U., Northwestern, etc.

How about for Autism? (I apologize, my data has not kept current but as of late 2009)
https://repairstemcell.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/stem-cells-for-autism/
and Private Site

Please also look at the 29,500 scholarly papers submitted on “stem cell” plus “autism” minus embryonic. These are up to date:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=autism&as_epq=stem+cell&as_oq=&as_eq=embryonic&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C39&as_vis=1

I hope this was informative. If I can be of any assistance on specific diseases or questions, please feel free to ask.

95

Hello, I am new here but familiar with Straight Dope. I was happy to see this thread when researching this topic, and I actually did read all of the posts.
I have kidney failure. Recently discovered a patient’s blog who has gone through the treatment at ascaac to help her reverse scarring and no longer need a transplant or dialysis. It’s odd because I had no idea about this procedure and I was actually looking up information about prediabetes (my potential donor that made it through all of the tests was denied because of prediabetes), so I cannot remember just how in the world I came across her blog as it has nothing to do with diabetes… Anyway, she had her treatment in August (at first I thought she could be the poster in this thread, 2012user. On her blog she documents the entire process) she claims the treatment is helping and that she has cut her dialysis time from the normal 4 hour sessions 3 days a week, to now 2.5 hour sessions 3 days a week. She says her labs are improving and that she no longer gains fluid. I was excited to find this. The only stem cell related treatment (in the U.S.) I was aware of was one that aimed to allow a donor recipient to no longer depend/ need anti-rejection medication. Sounds awesome, but the procedure has risks, involves chemo…etc.
Still, I am an optimistic person (and I tend to believe people) so I was very interested in this woman’s story. Perhaps you have heard of her as she gained some publicity after receiving a $20,000 donation from Ty Warner, the beenie babies creator, who randomly happened upon her while she was fundraising at an outdoor event. I have done a lot of reading…medical research…write ups on autism and stem cells…embryonic vs. adult…etc, etc. Of course I have no background in the medical field, I am just a patient trying to look out for myself, so it has been quite overwhelming. I even wrote the woman, Jennifer. She is nice, but she clearly seems to be capitalizing on her experience with the stem cell treatment through the ascaac at their Trinidad location. She gave me information and answered my questions fairly well, but in her 2 emails, at the end, she mentioned that she offers consultations on better living with kidney failure. She also said she could get me in touch with Dr. Matrani:
Regarding more details on the stem cell treatment itself:
In order to
support myself and continue to pay my mounting medical bills, I am offering
a stem cell treatment consultation to people who want the specifics. My fee
is $65.00. In addition, my direct connection with the director of the
clinic allows people to save money on the treatment.

I’m sure you all will agree, that seems like several red flags. Personally, I know if I had important information regarding new treatments for kidney failure, I would love to talk anyone’s ear off who’d listen, especially other sufferers. I cannot imagine charging someone for this. To be fair, she herself has a background in holistic medicines and teaches this, so perhaps she sees it as a natural progression of what she can offer in her career’s field. I don’t know. I am having a hard time believing that she thinks the stem cell treatment is a scam.
So, I am wondering if the Adult Stem Cell & Anti Aging Center can get away with these treatments and claims because, besides the fact they are outside of the U.S., they regard their treatments (though they certainly inflate it) as a procedure that MAY work, similar to holistic healing. Sure it may make some people feel better, but there is not evidence. It’s a placebo. I am also just assuming that everything they do there has minimal risks. I sure hope so.

Can you tell me how these places are able to stay in business? Is there nothing that can police them globally? While researching I came across so many shady websites and facility’s around the world. It is so disheartening and sad.

I also came across this website: www.planethospital.com Are there examples of procedures that are actually safe where one would travel a great distance? I looked over their patient survey and it seems they are liposuction and breast plant oriented…

I thought I should post another site that had a similar but small debate, and drew the ascaac to comment as well as the poster before me, stemcellblogger. They b trollin’.

I did find a few articles that offer hope, my favorite one here:
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4328/australians-achieve-kidney-stem-cell-world-first
It is from May 2011! Any news since then?

It seems like stem cells could actually help reverse scarring in the kidneys and I am very excited about it. If I am able to have a transplant though, I don’t see how I can take part in this medical advance as my own kidneys will eventually shrivel up (gross). I was excited that the ascaac may offer me hope, that they could perhaps cure me of the disease that caused this and heal my kidneys as well. To know that this hope is unwarrented is a horrible feeling. I am sickened that they can get away with this. I just don’t understand it.
I just thought you all would like to know about this woman’s blog and also my experience as someone who was almost taken in by it all. I am young and this is my first time having a health issue.
I should mention that my family was also fooled and excited by it. We have a relative that was treated for MS in its early stages with stem cells, so we’ve seen it work first hand (though this was an entirely different procedure involving bone marrow and radiation).

96

The fellows at Quackwatch (already cited before) report that one should indeed check the good science, there is a lot of bad on this subject.

97

I can vouch for goldenmorning’s story. I’m her boyfriend. I haven’t been to SDMB in a long time. Would really appreciate some more discussion on this topic based on what she’s written in her post, as much of the earlier talk was so contentious. We feel like we need to make decisions fast.

There is a research lab in Australia at Monash University (referenced in the cosmos.com article goldenmorning posted) studying specifically stem cell treatments and her disease, FSGS. Question to those who’ve self-described as “guinea pigs” - how do you get involved in clinical trials, etc.? I don’t think Monash’s lab is yet at the human trial stage but when it gets there we’d be interested in volunteering for any studies they do. Is it possible for us to do this? We’re Americans, so would we need to apply for some kind of temporary citizenship, first? Lots of questions come to mind and several more I’m likely leaving out. Happy to receive any and all info, thanks in advance.

98

Looking at the information coming from Monash, it is clear that they are cautious, as any that is seriously investigating this should be.

http://monash.edu/monashmag/articles/stem-cells-and-the-travails-of-hope.html

One note about that last bit: it is research that looks also at people that are affected negatively, sadly, many are.