# STEM Dopers, how Do you View Social Sciences? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 10, 2022, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320 "2022-09-10T10:38:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/61 "2022-09-15T17:57:20Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > There are wicked problems which are genuinely hard to solve, and complicated problems which can be usefully simplified by picking the right variables making the biggest contribution. Any problem can be made impossibly detailed. Mathematical modelling does not have to be off by too much for the results to be garbage. When I was in grad school my advisor had a group doing interval arithmetic, which is explicitly giving the range of error in a computation given the limited precision of the computer. The Army Corps of Engineers would dump dirt into the Mississippi to keep it from wandering places where it shouldn’t go. Lots of dirt. They showed that the computation they did to determine how much dirt to use was basically producing random numbers because of the precision issue. So it doesn’t have to be a bad model to make the results garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/62 "2023-12-05T14:34:35Z")
Bumped. Still more to do: [https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/us/stem-gender-interest-gap-reaj/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/us/stem-gender-interest-gap-reaj/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/63 "2023-12-05T15:04:39Z")
IME that is a cultural thing, plus blatant sexism does not help. But, as for the social sciences themselves, these days one uses (where appropriate) the same kinds of mathematical models and data analysis used, for example, in high-energy physics. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/64 "2023-12-05T17:37:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > One of the core problems is that we are increasingly dealing with complex systems, and we are attempting to treat them as if they are merely complicated and can be broken down and understood through a process of reduction, like figuring out how a watch works. > > This is not so much about STEM vs social sciences, but about using the wrong tools for the iob. Complex systems can be found in just about every field, STEM or otherwise. The thing is. as we learn more about complexity and its ramifications we should be more humble about our ability to predict future behaviour or understand in detail what’s going on inside them. > > [snip] I’m only encountering this post now, and I have to say it’s a very well-thought-out post with an important point, not just about the limitations of classical STEM approaches to understanding the natural world but, more generically, our overall thought processes. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/65 "2023-12-06T01:11:20Z")
I have studied linguistics some and I think they are trying, but they are at the level of Aristotalian physics. It is hard. When I see how economists can differ on basic questions (Inflation is still out of control; no it isn’t. We’re in a recession; no we’re not, etc.) I realize it can’t be much of a science. My attitude towards sociology is summarized by the following joke. The deans of arts and of sciences are having a stroll across campus. The dean of science explains that he has this wonderful department, mathematics. To keep a mathematician happy all you have to give him is a desk, a chair, a pencil, paper, and a wastebasket. The arts dean says that he can top that. He has a department, sociology, and all a sociologist needs is … I’ll let you finish it. \<\\> ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/66 "2023-12-06T01:47:29Z")
Thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/67 "2023-12-06T02:40:52Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > The blunt fact is History is much more difficult than any of the hard sciences. When I did my BA in history, the attitude in our department was that we were in the humanities, not social sciences. Donald Creighton would have been proud. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/68 "2023-12-06T06:29:06Z")
The act of studying ourselves is intrinsically complicated. It should neither be approached with the goal of shoving it into the kind of positivist and objective approach that serves the STEM sciences so well nor disparaged for not being as tightly and narrowly channelled. The relevant and viable criticism that can be leveled is a part of that complexity: that none of us can climb out of our context and study us collectively from the outside. We have vested interests and compelling reasons to act upon any knowledge of the social situation. We also have emotional and psychological investments already in how we perceive ourselves individually and collectively. And all of this tends to permeate our interpretation of any data, and despite occasional protestations to the contrary, science does not consist of raw data alone. Theory and interpretation of data are fundamental in all of science. It’s not that we can’t do it, nor that we aren’t doing it right; it’s that we have to take all of the above into account, since we can’t dismiss it, and it makes all the conversations complex in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/69 "2023-12-06T08:55:11Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I have studied linguistics some and I think they are trying, but they are at the level of Aristotalian physics. It is hard. Linguistics is a vast discipline and some of its fields lend themselves very well to quantitative research, testable hypotheses and falsifiable theories. Phonetics, computational linguistics, and neurolinguistics and for example. Others are less clear-cut. Some of their theoretical concepts may be a bit fuzzy, but they still rely on objective description of real life phenomena, with some real degree of predicability. I’d argue that typology, comparative linguistics, phonology and morphosyntax fall in this category. Finally, some fields such as semantics, pragmatics, and sociolinguistics seem to me to be much more speculative and interpretation-dependent. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > When I see how economists can differ on basic questions… To be honest, linguists can’t agree on what exactly a [word](https://www.eva.mpg.de/fileadmin/content_files/staff/haspelmt/pdf/WordSegmentation.pdf) is… ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/70 "2023-12-06T15:16:45Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The deans of arts and of sciences are having a stroll across campus. The dean of science explains that he has this wonderful department, mathematics. To keep a mathematician happy all you have to give him is a desk, a chair, a pencil, paper, and a wastebasket. The arts dean says that he can top that. He has a department, sociology, and all a sociologist needs is … The way I remember joke is the mathematics department is cheap to run because all in it needs pencils, paper, and wastebaskets and the sociology (or philosophy) department is even cheaper because they don’t EVEN need wastebaskets. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/71 "2023-12-06T16:32:21Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > He has a department, sociology, and all a sociologist needs is …a history department from which the sociologist can steal hard facts and ideas and then make up a theory ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/72 "2023-12-06T17:18:40Z")
…and if that history department doesn’t have the ‘facts’ that comport to your theory, just find another history department. That is, if you can get past the marching genocide supporters. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/73 "2023-12-06T19:36:16Z")
Moderating: Palestinian protesters, or whoever you are describing, are totally off topic for this thread. Don’t go there. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/74 "2023-12-06T20:51:37Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > The way I remember joke is the mathematics department is cheap to run because all in it needs pencils, paper, and wastebaskets and the sociology (or philosophy) department is even cheaper because they don’t EVEN need wastebaskets. Of course that’s the joke. I was just afraid to finish it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/75 "2023-12-06T21:25:24Z")
“The rest of the joke is left as an exercise for the reader.” ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/76 "2023-12-06T22:25:06Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The rest of the joke is left as an exercise for the reader. “Having reduced the joke to a known ~~solution~~ punchline, no further explanation is needed.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/77 "2023-12-06T23:44:35Z")
I finished the joke, and it was the funniest joke ever written, but since there are no book margins online, I had to throw it away. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/78 "2023-12-07T02:54:55Z")
I somehow _knew_ Trump and Pierre de Fermat were the same dude… ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/79 "2023-12-07T03:04:28Z")
I told ChatGPT to rip off Tenacious D and write a poem about it: **The Funniest Joke in the World - Tribute** I once wrote the funniest joke in the world It was so hilarious, it made me hurl It had the perfect punchline and the best setup It was so witty, it could make a grown man wet up But alas, I forgot to write it down And now I can’t remember a single sound It’s gone forever, like a dream in the night And all I have left is this poem to recite This is not the funniest joke in the world This is just a tribute I wish I could remember the funniest joke in the world But this is the best I could do So please don’t judge me too harshly For I know this poem is not very funny But maybe you can imagine the joke in your mind And laugh along with me, if you are so kind This is not the funniest joke in the world This is just a tribute To the greatest joke that ever was But I forgot it, what a buzz…kill Thank you for listening to my poem I hope you enjoyed it, even though it was lame Maybe someday I will remember the joke And then I will share it with you, and we’ll both go insane ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320/80 "2023-12-07T20:33:13Z")
I would think that the most basic premise when dealing with social science would be that people tend to behave and perform better when they like who they are or even like the direction they are going. This can go a lot of different directions but if we try to start from first cause and work outward from there it becomes easier simply because many of the problems down the line would disappear. For example, liking who we are needs to be relative to something else for comparison. If I had a father who was a drug addict and a player with basically no morals, he might become my model. I would quickly find out that this would not work in society but with nowhere else to go I might simply struggle with this as a model throughout my life. I would say that exploring the concept of modeling with or without religion would be a major step. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/stem-dopers-how-do-you-view-social-sciences/971320.md?page=5)