# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/201 "2015-03-22T18:55:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And yes, I’m going to continue to maintain that an arrangement of words - _any_ such arrangement - cannot be racist. The words have to be used by someone for them to be racist. You certainly used the words, that’s why we are here calling them racist. Once you communicate words to another, those others infer a meaning from them. If you do not choose and arrange them carefully, they may take from your use a meaning you may claim that you did not intend. Your choice of words even when in your head and not yet communicated may indeed be interpreted as racist if another learns of them. That is why you should exercise your internal editor and avoid communicating offensive words, lest others infer from them their ordinary meaning and taking offense and judging your character therefrom. I’ll be the first to admit that I have racist ones that I hope never escape my simian brain, lest they offend others in a socially offensive and unacceptable way. It’s called getting along and the greater good. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/202 "2015-03-22T19:14:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > You certainly used the words, that’s why we are here calling them racist. Once you communicate words to another, those others infer a meaning from them. If you do not choose and arrange them carefully, they may take from your use a meaning you may claim that you did not intend. Your choice of words even when in your head and not yet communicated may indeed be interpreted as racist if another learns of them. That is why you should exercise your internal editor and avoid communicating offensive words, lest others infer from them their ordinary meaning and taking offense and judging your character therefrom. > > I’ll be the first to admit that I have racist ones that I hope never escape my simian brain, lest they offend others in a socially offensive and unacceptable way. It’s called getting along and the greater good. That is what I’ve been trying to say all along. I’m wondering if **MrDibble** will now be calling you racist, for admitting that you have racist thoughts that never leave your head - it’s certainly consistent with other times he’s done that to people. I’m fairly sure that, not only are you not racist, you are actively against racism, which is why you make the effort to avoid it - just like most people do. But I maintain that it’s the act, not the thought or the arrangement of words that is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/203 "2015-03-22T20:00:50Z")
Writing or saying the words is not inherently racist. Otherwise I could be claimed to be racist simply by quoting the OP. Context is important. However, I do find it hard to imagine a situation in which just saying ‘blacks are subhuman’ doesn’t come across as racist. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/204 "2015-03-22T20:05:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But I maintain that it’s the act, not the thought or the arrangement of words that is racist. But again, didn’t you say an opinion can be racist? How is an opinion not a thought? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/205 "2015-03-22T20:07:31Z")
You’ve misquoted me when you say “racist thoughts never leave my head”. That is bullshit. I have long periods of time without racist thoughts. Committing racist thoughts to the internet in writing is not the same thing as having racist thoughts. Your unacceptable behavior is your grotesque publication and propagation of those thoughts disguised as a lesson on syllogisms. Yeah, I am not racist thought free. I am fully aware that it is wrong to propagate those thoughts and give cover to people doing so. Doing what you are doing is wrong and immoral. Repent and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/206 "2015-03-22T20:09:15Z")
I’m not propagating any racist views. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/207 "2015-03-22T20:10:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with **jsgoddess** – I understood **Ann Hedonia** ’s post to be saying “if you think of someone as you would a faithful dog due to their race, then you’re still a racist, even though you like them”. Exactly. You can’t say “Gosh, I think the WORLD of my dear black friends who just so happen to be genetically stupid.” That’s how you think of pets, as dear friends who are mentally deficient. It isn’t how you think of people for whom you really have respect. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/208 "2015-03-22T20:14:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But again, didn’t you say an opinion can be racist? How is an opinion not a thought? An opinion is derived from thoughts and experiences, it’s not simply a neutral though. Which is why I’ll still maintain that someone thinking “blacks are subhuman” but not acting on it is not racist. Someone who thinks “blacks are \, therefore we should treat all blacks in a particular way” is being racist - they are actively drawing a conclusion. Of course, if they don’t act on that conclusion in any way, and are in no way distinguishable from anyone who hasn’t drawn that conclusion, it’s still meaningless to actually call them racist. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/209 "2015-03-22T20:19:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > An opinion is derived from thoughts and experiences, it’s not simply a neutral though. > > Which is why I’ll still maintain that someone thinking “blacks are subhuman” but not acting on it is not racist. Someone who thinks “blacks are \, therefore we should treat all blacks in a particular way” is being racist - they are actively drawing a conclusion. Is “Blacks are stupid” racist? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/210 "2015-03-22T20:22:09Z")
No statement, by itself, can be. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/211 "2015-03-22T20:23:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No statement, by itself, can be. But you said a statement was an action. You’ve said opinions can be racist, and actions can be racist, and that statements are actions, and opinion statements are opinions. So why can’t statements be racist? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/212 "2015-03-22T20:40:15Z")
The statement, the arrangement of words absent of anyone actually saying it, has no moral value at all. The act of stating it may well do. I’ve very carefully explained this already. I accept that it would be better to say that the _phrase_ has no inherent moral value, rather than the _statement_, as that does imply the action of stating it, although it should be clear from what I’ve written previously that that’s not what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/213 "2015-03-22T20:57:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The statement, the arrangement of words absent of anyone actually saying it, has no moral value at all. The act of stating it may well do. I’ve very carefully explained this already. I accept that it would be better to say that the _phrase_ has no inherent moral value, rather than the _statement_, as that does imply the action of stating it, although it should be clear from what I’ve written previously that that’s not what I meant. But again, it’s an opinion. It is a conclusion. You said that opinions and conclusions can be racist. As for your contention that a hidden racist is no racist at all, I agree that if I don’t perceive racism in you, I am unlikely to call you a racist. But if I perceive racism in me, I call myself a racist, no matter how hidden my racism may be from others. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/214 "2015-03-22T21:19:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > But again, it’s an opinion. It is a conclusion. Not necessarily, no, it’s a phrase. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/215 "2015-03-22T21:20:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not necessarily, no, it’s a phrase. Do you think words have meaning? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/216 "2015-03-22T21:34:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not necessarily, no, it’s a phrase. Missed the edit window. “Not necessarily” means it can be. When is it an opinion or a conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/217 "2015-03-22T21:38:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No statement, by itself, can be. That is never the case. Ever. Every statement has an author and a context. It is uttered with meaning intended by the author and meaning understood by the listener. Alex the parrot made statements with meaning. x + y = z has a meaning. It does not exist by itself. While a treat may exist without meaning, communication has meaning. Perhaps there is a failure in making the statement or interpreting the statement, but it has meaning. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/218 "2015-03-22T22:21:01Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > That is never the case. Ever. Every statement has an author and a context. It is uttered with meaning intended by the author and meaning understood by the listener. Alex the parrot made statements with meaning. x + y = z has a meaning. It does not exist by itself. > > While a treat may exist without meaning, communication has meaning. Perhaps there is a failure in making the statement or interpreting the statement, but it has meaning. While a tree exist without meaning… ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/219 "2015-03-22T23:29:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > (The Earth, of course, is not a cube.) Blasphemer!! The idea that the statement can either be true or not is correct grammatically. However as we know blacks (crikey try and define what black is) are the same as everyone else then it shows on the behalf of the person asking a desire to implant the suggestion that maybe they are subhuman. If an alien came down and asked the question of someone then the moral argument doesn’t come into it as they are ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/220 "2015-03-22T23:49:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree with **jsgoddess** – I understood **Ann Hedonia** ’s post to be saying “if you think of someone as you would a faithful dog due to their race, then you’re still a racist, even though you like them”. I am certainly no fan of MrDibble, yet he does have a point regarding Steophan and magellan01. Regarding **Ann Hedonia** , though, I’m surprised he missed the point that badly. Heck, his response to her very clear posting is akin to those morons who think _niggardly_ is a racist word. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=12)