# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/261 "2015-03-24T06:40:20Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > AWW, it takes more than that to offend me. > > I’m just so used to my postings in this type of thread getting lost in the back and forth of whatever tangential turn the thread has taken that it kind of took me back - it’s nice to know that people actually read what I post because sometimes I don’t see much evidence of it. > > I’m glad I got the chance to play. Thanks for being so gracious. Again, I’m sorry I called you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/262 "2015-03-24T16:20:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Of course. But, should you choose to use that phrase to describe me knowing that it’s false, then you’ve acted poorly. Were the statement true, then there would be actions of mine - actions with an actual moral weight - that you could point to. > > Most of the time, when people say “x is racist” they are doing so either as an insult, or in an attempt to shut down discussion. Some of the time it’s true, and saying so may actually be useful. As the same phrase can be either good or bad when uttered, depending mostly on its truth value and partly on the intention of the speaker, the phrase itself has no inherent moral value. So when we point to your use of loaded examples for our evidence that Steophan is a racist who uses loaded examples to inflame audiences, that phrase is either true or false, and if the people an answer that disagrees with you, then the phrase has no inherent moral value. That’s wrong. Steophan is a racist because he uses racially charged and linguistically loaded examples to explain logic to consciously put his racist ideas in front of people where racially neutral and non-loaded terms would work just as well (the moon is made of green cheese). Racism is immoral, and using loaded terms like “subhuman” modifying Blacks is racist and immoral. According to your faulty logic, communication of words is not an action, so you see that statement “Steophan is a racist” as entirely neutral and are not offended at all by it. However, everyone else understands by this that Steophan is a in fact a racist, immoral and sees that it is true. Words have meaning. That is why they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/263 "2015-03-24T16:59:59Z")
The example was provided in the context of 19th century slavery, where it was a commonly expressed view, not plucked out of thin air, and was a response to a specific post by **iiandyiiii**. So your premise is false, therefore you have no grounds for concluding _anything_ about me. Including racism, immorality, or whatever.# Not that there’s actually anything wrong with using racially charged or linguistically loaded terms to make a point, mainly because those terms can only become charged or loaded in context, and using them out of context is harmless. Not “should be harmless” as a moral judgement, “is harmless” as an observation of fact. Someone who claims to have been harmed by them, or that others could be harmed by them, is wrong, they are being harmed _solely_ by their own ignorance or stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/264 "2015-03-24T17:02:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The example was provided in the context of 19th century slavery, where it was a commonly expressed view, not plucked out of thin air, and was a response to a specific post by **iiandyiiii**. > > So your premise is false, therefore you have no grounds for concluding _anything_ about me. Including racism, immorality, or whatever.# > > Not that there’s actually anything wrong with using racially charged or linguistically loaded terms to make a point, mainly because those terms can only become charged or loaded in context, and using them out of context is harmless. Not “should be harmless” as a moral judgement, “is harmless” as an observation of fact. Someone who claims to have been harmed by them, or that others could be harmed by them, is wrong, they are being harmed _solely_ by their own ignorance or stupidity. You don’t understand language, thinking, or… well, maybe I should try listing what you do understand. You seem to be a good speller. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/265 "2015-03-24T17:23:54Z")
It’s hard to choose what I like best about these **Steophan/Dibble/magellan01/Second Stone** conferences on race. The innovative ideas and well-sourced arguments? The refreshing lack of hyperbole, logical fallacies, generalizations and other rhetorical dodges and stunts? Maybe it’s the warm feeling I get from seeing that there’s at least one intellectual oasis in the online desert where very smart people with very different backgrounds and perspectives can come together, and despite what seem to be insurmountable differences in opinion, manage to treat each other civilly, express a willingness to see through another’s eyes, and eventually, after a lot of hard work and deep consideration, find some common ground. Yes, they are all too brief and I can’t help being sad when one winds down, but my spirit is lifted by the certainty that if I’m patient enough, soon they’ll have another meeting of the minds, tackle a new problem in new ways, and (in their own small way) help to make this board, and the Internet, and the world at large just a little bit brighter and more hopeful a place than it was before. It doesn’t get said often enough, but guys, thanks. You’re four in a million. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/266 "2015-03-24T18:36:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Thanks for being so gracious. Again, I’m sorry I called you a racist. And I’m sorry I insulted your intelligence, heat of the moment and all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/267 "2015-03-24T18:56:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The example was provided in the context of 19th century slavery, where it was a commonly expressed view, not plucked out of thin air, and was a response to a specific post by **iiandyiiii**. > > So your premise is false, therefore you have no grounds for concluding _anything_ about me. Including racism, immorality, or whatever.# > > Not that there’s actually anything wrong with using racially charged or linguistically loaded terms to make a point, mainly because those terms can only become charged or loaded in context, and using them out of context is harmless. Not “should be harmless” as a moral judgement, “is harmless” as an observation of fact. Someone who claims to have been harmed by them, or that others could be harmed by them, is wrong, they are being harmed _solely_ by their own ignorance or stupidity. Steophan is a racist just a statement that is either true or false. It is nothing to get offended about. Especially since you think it is false. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/268 "2015-03-24T18:57:27Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It’s hard to choose what I like best about these **Steophan/Dibble/magellan01/Second Stone** conferences on race. The innovative ideas and well-sourced arguments? The refreshing lack of hyperbole, logical fallacies, generalizations and other rhetorical dodges and stunts? Maybe it’s the warm feeling I get from seeing that there’s at least one intellectual oasis in the online desert where very smart people with very different backgrounds and perspectives can come together, and despite what seem to be insurmountable differences in opinion, manage to treat each other civilly, express a willingness to see through another’s eyes, and eventually, after a lot of hard work and deep consideration, find some common ground. > > Yes, they are all too brief and I can’t help being sad when one winds down, but my spirit is lifted by the certainty that if I’m patient enough, soon they’ll have another meeting of the minds, tackle a new problem in new ways, and (in their own small way) help to make this board, and the Internet, and the world at large just a little bit brighter and more hopeful a place than it was before. > > It doesn’t get said often enough, but guys, thanks. You’re four in a million. At least five counting you! It’s just a statement that is either true or false, no need to get offended! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/269 "2015-03-24T19:33:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Steophan is a racist just a statement that is either true or false. It is nothing to get offended about. Especially since you think it is false. I’m not offended by the words. I’m not offended by you keeping on typing the words either, because it’s plainly false, and anyone can tell that. The only people who call me racist don’t know what the word means. If, however, you were actually attempting to discredit me anywhere it mattered, then your _action_ in doing so would be important. If, for example, I couldn’t defend myself, or if your opinion was likely to be believed. Context matters, not just words. Without context, they have no effect. I’m tempted to say without context they have no meaning, but I’m not entirely sure I could justify that. It certainly seems right, though. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/270 "2015-03-24T20:06:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You don’t understand language, thinking, or… well, maybe I should try listing what you do understand. You seem to be a good speller. Still waiting for a cite or an apology for this: [QUOTE=jsgoddess] Magellan is a racist because he thinks black people are less intelligent. [/QUOTE] Even the person here I am most at odds with, in this thread and others, volunteered that he disagrees with your assessment. So, choose one: A) provide a cite B) apologize for your “error” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/271 "2015-03-25T08:08:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Still waiting for a cite or an apology for this: > > Even the person here I am most at odds with, in this thread and others, volunteered that he disagrees with your assessment. > > So, choose one: > > A) provide a cite > B) apologize for your “error” Since this is the pit, I exercise the third option: Go fuck yourself, goat felcher! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/272 "2015-03-25T11:07:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Still waiting for a cite or an apology for this: > > Even the person here I am most at odds with, in this thread and others, volunteered that he disagrees with your assessment. > > So, choose one: > > A) provide a cite > B) apologize for your “error” I believe she was recognizing your body of work, sorta a lifetime achievement award. Graciously accept the trophy, make a small speech, recognize a few other bigots for their contributions, then sit the fuck down. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/273 "2015-03-25T14:03:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, these statements are all racist? > > Black people are incredibly creative. > > Black people are intelligent. > > Black people are more intelligent than others. > > Black people have higher IQs. > > Black people have a healthy outlook on life. > > Black people are good athletes. > > Black people have beautiful skin. If you believe they’re not, you’re a racist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/274 "2015-03-25T16:35:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not offended by the words. I’m not offended by you keeping on typing the words either, because it’s plainly false, and anyone can tell that. The only people who call me racist don’t know what the word means. > > If, however, you were actually attempting to discredit me anywhere it mattered, then your _action_ in doing so would be important. If, for example, I couldn’t defend myself, or if your opinion was likely to be believed. > > Context matters, not just words. Without context, they have no effect. I’m tempted to say without context they have no meaning, but I’m not entirely sure I could justify that. It certainly seems right, though. Calling you a goat fucker (you’re a goat fucker) would have that effect, because we all assume that you are not in fact a goat fucker. Your mileage may vary if you are in fact a goat fucker. The reason you keep coming back and defending yourself on the racist charge is because you know damn well you have given plenty of evidence of being a racist. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt. Repent and racist no more. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/275 "2015-03-25T16:50:33Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Calling you a goat fucker (you’re a goat fucker) would have that effect, because we all assume that you are not in fact a goat fucker. Your mileage may vary if you are in fact a goat fucker. The reason you keep coming back and defending yourself on the racist charge is because you know damn well you have given plenty of evidence of being a racist. Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt. Repent and racist no more. Nope, I’ve given no such evidence. Which is why people like you and Dibble just keep claiming it without actually pointing to it. Which is especially funny on his part, with his constant screams of “cite” and “liar”. You’re just the silly little man standing next to him going “yeah!” every time he does it. The sad thing is, I think both of you actually believe it. Silly people. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/276 "2015-03-25T16:56:29Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I believe she was recognizing your body of work, sorta a lifetime achievement award. Graciously accept the trophy, make a small speech, recognize a few other bigots for their contributions, then sit the fuck down. Yeah, but then Kanye West will burst in and suggest someone else deserves it more, ruining it for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/277 "2015-03-25T16:59:58Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > If you believe they’re not, you’re a racist. And if you believe they are, you’re an idiot. Racial does not equal racist. Tell me, can you come up with any statement that is racial, but not raci_st?_ I low your game. Try to equate the words, trying to imply they are one in the same. The you can apply the very load insult “racist” to anyone who utters anything that is merel racial. like I said, you’re an idiot. But the strategy is also a dishonest one. So, you’ve got that going for you, too. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/278 "2015-03-25T18:18:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And if you believe they are, you’re an idiot. Racial does not equal racist. > > Tell me, can you come up with any statement that is racial, but not raci_st?_ > > I low your game. Try to equate the words, trying to imply they are one in the same. The you can apply the very load insult “racist” to anyone who utters anything that is merel racial. > > like I said, you’re an idiot. But the strategy is also a dishonest one. So, you’ve got that going for you, too. Nice try son, except you’re not being “racial” and it’s quite obvious you possess a flawed understanding of the definition of the words racial and racism. All your statements above include prejudiced and generalized fallacies based solely on race. That is racism. **Racism** - The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: \*\*Racism- \*\*The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. **Racism-** a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. You seem to think that because the attributes you chose seem positive for “Black People”, they can’t be viewed racist, you’re wrong. I may be an idiot, but at least I’m not a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/279 "2015-03-25T18:49:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Racial does not equal racist. What else could an assertion that one race is superior in intelligence to another be (this just counts for one or two out of your list)? > [@](#): > > Tell me, can you come up with any statement that is racial, but not raci_st?_ I still don’t know what exactly “racial” means, but I’ll try – “many black people in America descend from slaves”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/280 "2015-03-25T20:47:55Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Since this is the pit, I exercise the third option: > > Go fuck yourself, goat felcher! [Moderating] Smiley or not, please do not tell other posters to go fuck themselves. The goat, on the other hand, is on its own. No warning issued. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=15)