# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/301 "2015-03-27T00:04:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I know, I’ve repeatedly said that in this thread. However, mentioning the idea that some people think “black people are inferior” is not racist. That fact that someone here could say, as they are at least trying to, “ **Steophan** thinks black people are inferior” and not be a racist for doing so (just an idiot) shows that the words themselves “black people are inferior” do not necessarily, in context, show the speaker is racist. But you didn’t just mention that some people think black people are inferior – you said that stating black people are inferior (or subhuman) is not a racist thing to do (or the statement is not racist – a distinction without a difference). I strongly disagree. I’m not calling you a racist, but I think that statement (blacks are subhuman) is very obviously and necessarily racist. I think your assertions that statements and beliefs can’t be racist is contrary to the dictionary definition and common usage of the word. > [@](#): > > There are two separate issues in this thread. One is that words need context to have any meaning, and hence any moral value. That _shouldn’t_ be controversial, but for some reason it seems to be. So show a context in which asserting that “black people are subhuman” is not a racist assertion. I can’t think of one. > [@](#): > > The second, and harder to argue but no less true when actually thought about, is that internal thoughts and beliefs that are neither acted on nor expressed do not, for any practical purpose, exist in the wider world, and attempting to assign _any_ properties to them is problematic. Add that to the fact that religious fundamentalists and totalitarian governments (hence the Nineteen Eighty-Four reference) claim to judge the inner, unexpressed beliefs of people, and you can see why it’s wrong to do so - even if acting on those beliefs would also be wrong. I have no problem with judging and identifying beliefs. This belief is wrong, that one is right, that one is problematic, etc. In no way am I arguing that people should be punished in any way whatsoever for their private beliefs and thoughts. It’s entirely reasonable to point out that a belief that evolution is false is a _wrong_ belief, and it is wrong to try to instill such a belief in others. It’s reasonable to judge that belief, while not advocating that any punishment be taken for any thoughts at all. > [@](#): > > In short, it’s not even wrong but _meaningless_ to call racist someone who’s actions are never racist, only their internal thoughts, as it is impossible to know the truth of it. This is contrary to the definition and common usage of the word. In modern English, “racist” can be used to describe statements and beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/302 "2015-03-27T00:04:16Z")
What Steophan says does the opposite, regardless of intent. Must be a tough life. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/303 "2015-03-27T00:09:16Z")
Here’s where Steophan admits to being a racist: > [@Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1257): > > Saying he doesn’t care about racism towards white people makes him _at least_ as racist as me, the standard I’m gonna use to judge him. Now, I think I’m not particularly racist, and if I am it’s unintentional and if it actually caused a problem I’d deal with it. But that, to **Dibble** , makes me almost Hitler. So he needs to accept he’s exactly the same. > > Basically, if you’re actually concerned about racism, you should be concerned about _all_ of it, and support measures towards equality that will make things better for all sufferers, whatever their race. Because if a white person has their life ruined by racism - even if it’s only one person in the whole country - they’re just as fucked as any black or brown person who the same thing happens to. And the same solutions should work for both instances - treat people as you find them, regardless of skin colour or racial identification. He admits to being a mild racist, but I think he is underplaying it a bit. No, he’s not as bad as Hitler (hey, he went there first), but he’s well into Jerry Falwell territory. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/304 "2015-03-27T00:19:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So show a context in which asserting that “black people are subhuman” is not a racist assertion. I can’t think of one. If it were true, obviously. Slightly more realistically, if, somehow, it was used in a context which called all other races subhuman as well. Such as a cult that claimed that only those who follow the way of Derek are truly human and all others are subhuman - whites are subhuman, blacks are subhuman, men, women, gay, straight and so forth. Yes, it’s a silly hypothetical, but there’s an answer for you. Context is necessary to judge _anything_. I’m not saying statements _can’t_ be racist, I’m saying that it’s impossible to decide that they are absent context. As for saying that an inner, unexpressed belief is racist, you might as well say it’s purple. It is just as meaningful. Yes, the dictionary says otherwise, because it reflects the usage of the word, and in this case people are using it in a way that conveys literally no information. _Expressed_ beliefs are a very different issue, mainly because that expression is an action. It is something that has an effect, that actually matters and can be judged. By the way, I know we’ve had some not especially friendly debates in the past, so I want to thank you for keeping this one interesting and civil. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/305 "2015-03-27T00:23:04Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Here’s where Steophan admits to being a racist: > > He admits to being a mild racist, but I think he is underplaying it a bit. No, he’s not as bad as Hitler (hey, he went there first), but he’s well into Jerry Falwell territory. No, I didn’t. I acknowledged that I may have unintentionally acted in a racist manner. So might _everybody_ though. Which is still far better than the open bigotry against the mentally ill or sexually unconventional expressed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/306 "2015-03-27T00:27:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If it were true, obviously. I think we’ve been over the inherent pejorative (and non-factual) nature of the word “subhuman”. > [@](#): > > Slightly more realistically, if, somehow, it was used in a context which called all other races subhuman as well. Such as a cult that claimed that only those who follow the way of Derek are truly human and all others are subhuman - whites are subhuman, blacks are subhuman, men, women, gay, straight and so forth. This is still racist (or bigoted) – against everyone except for the Derekites. I don’t think broadening the targets makes it any less racist. > [@](#): > > Yes, it’s a silly hypothetical, but there’s an answer for you. Context is necessary to judge _anything_. I’m not saying statements _can’t_ be racist, I’m saying that it’s impossible to decide that they are absent context. I don’t think it fits – I think it’s still racist, or at least bigoted, even if it includes multiple groups alongside it. > [@](#): > > As for saying that an inner, unexpressed belief is racist, you might as well say it’s purple. It is just as meaningful. Yes, the dictionary says otherwise, because it reflects the usage of the word, and in this case people are using it in a way that conveys literally no information. I think you’re admitting here that it’s just you who thinks beliefs can’t be racist, but I’ll disagree anyway. It can be just as instructive and useful to talk about why certain beliefs might be racist/bigoted/wrong/problematic as it can be for certain statements – to share ideas and understanding on what causes and influences these bad things. Hitler’s belief that the Jews needed to be destroyed was a racist belief. His actions were far, far worse, of course, but it’s fine to talk about his mistaken (and racist) beliefs as well. > [@](#): > > By the way, I know we’ve had some not especially friendly debates in the past, so I want to thank you for keeping this one interesting and civil. My pleasure, you hideous pig-dog. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/307 "2015-03-27T06:33:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope. That pretty much fits into the “not even wrong” category. If there’s no way to distinguish between two things, there is no difference - and there’s no way to distinguish between someone thinking racist thoughts and someone not. It is literally meaningless to call thoughts, or any other purely mental processes, racist. _You_ may think thoughts don’t actually exist. I take it they didn’t get past idealism in your Phil101 class? Most of the rest of us know they do exist, because they _cause_ the effects you’re fixated on. I’m not saying I can read minds, mind you. I’m just saying the thoughts exist and we can evaluate them as things. Kind of like how we can still evaluate scientific phenomena that have no physical effect on us. > [@](#): > > That words are used, and hence definitions created, by people too ignorant to understand that is not my fault, it’s the fault of education systems that don’t consider philosophy and linguistics to be necessary areas of study. So, to paraphrase: “I’m out of order? You’re out of order. The whole system is out of order!”\* Yeah, good job not coming across like a nutjob. - Yes, I’m aware this is a misquote, but it scans better. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/308 "2015-03-27T09:04:33Z")
Going back to the OP (sorry, I just got here…but I read the first and last pages at least), **Steophan** seems to be trying to make some distinction between statements and opinions. Well, if he wants to say the proposition “Blacks are sub-human” purely as a statement, floating about the Platonic realm, is not racist, but a human _asserting said statement is true_ (and thereby expressing an opinion), is racist, then sure, I can go with that. I’m lost as to why he would care about such a distinction however. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/309 "2015-03-27T14:53:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Kind of like how we can still evaluate scientific phenomena that have no physical effect on us. They have to have an effect on _something_, though, otherwise they don’t exist. And they have to have a measurable effect for us to know they exist. I see no good reason not to treat mental phenomena the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/310 "2015-03-27T14:56:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Going back to the OP (sorry, I just got here…but I read the first and last pages at least), **Steophan** seems to be trying to make some distinction between statements and opinions. > > Well, if he wants to say the proposition “Blacks are sub-human” purely as a statement, floating about the Platonic realm, is not racist, but a human _asserting said statement is true_ (and thereby expressing an opinion), is racist, then sure, I can go with that. > > I’m lost as to why he would care about such a distinction however. You’ve got my point entirely, and the reason I care about it is mainly because people are arguing about it, to be completely honest, but also because I think it’s ridiculous to claim that someone who has an unexpressed passing thought of whatever nature can be considered racist because of that thought. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/311 "2015-03-27T15:16:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They have to have an effect on _something_, though, otherwise they don’t exist. Of course > [@](#): > > And they have to have a measurable effect for us to know they exist. Sure > [@](#): > > I see no good reason not to treat mental phenomena the same way. _All_ mental phenomena are real, in that they’re just brain activity, same as physical effects exist. _No_ thought exists in any Platonic abstract realm. We can, in fact, scan people’s brains, and we’re only getting better and better at this over time. I’m not saying we can read minds yet, any more than we can detect Dark Matter But both are possible, hence idealism is bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/312 "2015-03-27T15:30:36Z")
And there was me thinking that Nineteen Eighty-Four and Minority Report were meant to be warnings, not aims… Enjoy trying to fight thoughtcrime and pre-crime. Judging the morality of an unexpressed thought or an untaken action seems equal parts absurd and abhorrent to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/313 "2015-03-27T15:36:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’ve got my point entirely, and the reason I care about it is mainly because people are arguing about it, to be completely honest, but also because I think it’s ridiculous to claim that someone who has an unexpressed passing thought of whatever nature can be considered racist because of that thought. But what if we’re not judging the person? Everyone has racist thoughts. I think it’s important to recognize when I have a racist thought, and recognize why that thought is racist, and I like to talk about it because other people might provide a new perspective on which thoughts might be racist. I think that helps me be a better person. Isn’t that a good, positive thing? Don’t you want to know which “sneaky” racist thoughts might be sneaking through your mind unidentified? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/314 "2015-03-27T15:46:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’ve got my point entirely, and the reason I care about it is mainly because people are arguing about it, to be completely honest, but also because I think it’s ridiculous to claim that someone who has an unexpressed passing thought of whatever nature can be considered racist because of that thought. This doesn’t seem coherent to me. You’re agreeing with me that asserting that the statement is true is racist. But are saying that just having that thought is not. But I can assert a statement is true without actually speaking it out loud. If a guy shouts a racist opinion in a forest where no-one can hear him, is he still a racist? > [@](#): > > And there was me thinking that Nineteen Eighty-Four and Minority Report were meant to be warnings, not aims… Enjoy trying to fight thoughtcrime and pre-crime. > > Judging the morality of an unexpressed thought or an untaken action seems equal parts absurd and abhorrent to me. Not really, no. We can say that a particular hypothetical thought is hateful, or spiteful, or compassionate or whatever, even though we can’t in reality look inside people’s minds, and even though it would not be possible (or sensible) to punish thoughts. We can do this because people can talk about their thoughts, and what leads them to particular opinions and actions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/315 "2015-03-27T20:40:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And there was me thinking that Nineteen Eighty-Four and Minority Report were meant to be warnings, not aims… Enjoy trying to fight thoughtcrime and pre-crime. No-one’s doing that, don’t be a drama queen. > [@](#): > > Judging the morality of an unexpressed thought or an untaken action seems equal parts absurd and abhorrent to me. All ideas carry some moral weight (some a lot less than others). It’s impossible to judge individual _people_ for thoughts they don’t express, because we can’t read minds. But we can certainly judge particular _ideas_, and indicate that thinking them would be immoral regardless of whether they’re ever said out loud. If you think “Blacks are subhuman” and never, ever express it, you’re still a racist. Because the thought exists, and at least one person _knows_ that it does. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/316 "2015-03-27T20:42:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Everyone has racist thoughts. No, I don’t agree. Racism is something you learn. I don’t think babies have racist thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/317 "2015-03-27T20:47:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I don’t agree. Racism is something you learn. I don’t think babies have racist thoughts. Okay, I’ll amend my statement – most people have racist thoughts at some point (IMO). I have in the past, and recognizing that those thoughts were racist helped me to understand that they were both false and harmful. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/318 "2015-03-28T05:32:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I’ll amend my statement – most people have racist thoughts at some point (IMO). I have in the past, and recognizing that those thoughts were racist helped me to understand that they were both false and harmful. Agreed - having a few racist thoughts doesn’t make someone a racist. Having more than a few, or not regretting the ones you do have, that would make one a racist. And acting on them, that would make one really racist. It’s clinal 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=15)