# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/21 "2015-03-20T18:40:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, that’s not it. Accuse people of racism based on whether or not they treat people as they find them, or pre-judge them because of their race. Or whether they encourage others to do the same. > > It’s entirely possible that, centuries ago, someone could have genuinely believed that blacks were subhuman, and yet also treated everyone no matter their race fairly - because no matter what their beliefs about the group, they were capable of judging on what they actually saw. That person would not, in any meaningful sense, be racist. > > It’s much harder to say that anyone educated could sincerely believe that now, given that there’s enough scientific and sociological proof that it’s wrong. > > But, again, it’s not the idea or the belief that’s racist, it’s the action. I’m not calling people racist, for the most part – I’m calling assertions racist. I don’t think I’ve even called **Chief Pedant** a racist, despite his repeated insistence that black people are inherently inferior, on average, in intelligence, and despite revealing slip-ups like inadvertently comparing black people to cockroaches. I just think (and I post) that he’s said a bunch of racist things. So I’m just calling out the “actions” – the actions of asserting racist things. Those racist things are racist, and I’m going to call the assertions racist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/22 "2015-03-20T18:42:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If someone has racist beliefs and never, ever acts on them, he’s still a racist. No, they’re not. Or, more importantly, there’s no way you or anyone else could ever know that they have those beliefs, and their having those beliefs has no effect on anything. Something that is unknowable and has no effect on anything does not, in any real sense, exist. And this is the point. For it to be a useful, meaningful, concept, “racism” is not a property of something, but an action taken. Someone is racist if, and only if, they act in a racist fashion. Interesting, though, that you refer to my “headvoices”. Glad to find another level of bigotry from you, this time against the mentally ill. Lovely to see. We can add that to the racism and homophobia, and a more general prejudice against those whose sexual proclivities you dislike. But it does bring up an interesting point. People _do_ hear voices in their heads, and those voices _do not_ exist. If a schizophrenic hears a voice saying “blacks are subhuman” but ignores it, is he racist? If not, why is the non-schizophrenic who also has something in his head that says that, but ignores it? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/23 "2015-03-20T18:42:15Z")
Whereas I’m happy to call people who consistently say racist things racists. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/24 "2015-03-20T18:45:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If they were capable of judging on what they actually saw, and not on their beliefs, why wouldn’t they go “Huh, you know what, I _don’t_ see any kind of difference between blacks and whites. They must not be subhuman as I thought.”, and thereby change their mind? That seems to be what does, in fact happen. On both an individual and societal level, the more people mix with other races, the less they express racist thoughts, at least after some time has passed. In the short term, racist actions can go up because of the greater opportunity for them to occur. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/25 "2015-03-20T18:45:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whereas I’m happy to call people who consistently say racist things racists. Which is fine with me. If I think you’ve gotten it very wrong at some point, I might let you know. And (speaking to others) it shouldn’t be scary or a big deal for someone to say “what you said/did makes me think you’re a racist”. That’s a good start to a conversation – just say “I’m sorry, I didn’t think so – here is why I didn’t think it was racist” or “oh my goodness, it didn’t occur to me that that might be racist – maybe I have some biases and bigotries that I was unaware of”. Then talk about it. Maybe the guy was wrong, maybe you were – but it’s not a big deal. There’s no reason for fear and anxiety. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/26 "2015-03-20T18:47:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whereas I’m happy to call people who consistently say racist things racists. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is, you are also happy to call people who do not say racist things racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/27 "2015-03-20T18:48:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nothing wrong with that. The problem is, you are also happy to call people who do not say racist things racist. Didn’t you call **MrDibble** a racist? I haven’t seen any links to support this… ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/28 "2015-03-20T18:49:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m not arguing anything this is a bankrupt statement. It is this sort of thing that makes it painful to be african and not a leftist, the gross excuse making for the racist expression among the right in the euro-american world. It is sad. > [@](#): > > No, I do not. They are the same sort of questions, with a true or false, testable answer. “Blacks are subhuman” is easily falsified with genetic testing, for example, which shows that they are, in fact, human. What is sub human? You react to dibble, he is very left and he is very annoying but you justify gross racialism, I hope in reaction to him. And Chief Pedant is a lying racist who plays the polite question game, like in that disgusting ebola conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/29 "2015-03-20T18:50:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That seems to be what does, in fact happen. On both an individual and societal level, the more people mix with other races, the less they express racist thoughts, at least after some time has passed. In the short term, racist actions can go up because of the greater opportunity for them to occur. My point was that in the scenario you’ve set up you appear to have this person go through a change; first believing that blacks are subhuman, then looking out on the world and seeing no evidence to support it, and ending up by rejecting their initial belief. Which is to say that the version of them that believed blacks are subhuman was still very racist, and the new version that treats people fairly isn’t (or, at least, not for that reason). Not that the old version of them that believed that wasn’t, as you’ve suggested, meaningfully racist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/30 "2015-03-20T18:53:15Z")
“Non-human” could be a neutral scientific term, but “subhuman” implies a non-scientific value judgment. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/31 "2015-03-20T18:53:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they’re not. Yes, they are. > [@](#): > > Or, more importantly, there’s no way you or anyone else could ever know that they have those beliefs, and their having those beliefs has no effect on anything. > > Something that is unknowable and has no effect on anything does not, in any real sense, exist. And you probably think if you put your head under the covers, you are invisible, too. Note I didn’t say “I know they’re a racist”, I said “they are a racist”. Your fictional silent racist is still a racist. > [@](#): > > And this is the point. For it to be a useful, meaningful, concept, “racism” is not a property of something, but an action taken. Someone is racist if, and only if, they act in a racist fashion. Holding a belief _is_ an action. And asking the question “Blacks - are they subhuman?” is a racist _action_ in-and-of-itself. > [@](#): > > Interesting, though, that you refer to my “headvoices”. Glad to find another level of bigotry from you, this time against the mentally ill. I didn’t say I hate you _because_ you hear voices. I hate you because you’re a stalkerish racist-lover. > [@](#): > > Lovely to see. We can add that to the racism Prove it. Liar. > [@](#): > > and homophobia ? Did the voices tell you this one as well? Or have you still not found out what yiffing is? It’s not (necessarily) gay, Ponyboy. > [@](#): > > , and a more general prejudice against those whose sexual proclivities you dislike. Teddyfucking isn’t a ‘proclivity’, ya perv. > [@](#): > > But it does bring up an interesting point. No, it brings up tedium. This thread isn’t to debate your craziness, you lying sack of pro-racist shit. It’s to point and laugh at anyone who can say “Blacks are subhuman” is not a racist statement. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/32 "2015-03-20T18:54:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And (speaking to others) it shouldn’t be scary or a big deal for someone to say “what you said/did makes me think you’re a racist”. Hmm. Saying “it looks like that thing you just did was racist” is one thing. Saying, based on one action, “you look like a racist” is another thing, it’s far stronger, and is an attack on that person. Unless they’re happy to be though racist, in which case you’re probably wasting your time. > [@](#): > > That’s a good start to a conversation – just say “I’m sorry, I didn’t think so – here is why I didn’t think it was racist” or “oh my goodness, it didn’t occur to me that that might be racist – maybe I have some biases and bigotries that I was unaware of”. Then talk about it. Maybe the guy was wrong, maybe you were – but it’s not a big deal. There’s no reason for fear and anxiety. A character assassination is not a good start to a conversation. Pointing out that someone made a one-off mistake - giving them the benefit of the doubt - is far better. A lot of this has started when people are being called racist not because of any bias on their own part, but because of a perceived lack of caring about the biases of others, usually the police or justice system. There is this assumption on some people’s parts (and I don’t think you’re one of them) that not being sufficiently anti-racist makes one racist. And that is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/33 "2015-03-20T18:55:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nothing wrong with that. The problem is, you are also happy to call people who do not say racist things racist. What, like “Blacks are subhuman”? I mean, it’s such a neutral statement and all… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/34 "2015-03-20T18:57:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they’re not. > > Someone is racist if, and only if, they act in a racist fashion. I’m not willing to spend hours and hundreds of posts arguing the point in a Pit thread, but as far as I’m concerned you’re wrong. Racist thoughts = racist. No action required. The whole mental exercise of “well, how would you ever know if they are racist if they don’t act on it?” is way too philosophy 101 for me. It’s splitting hairs because in the real world it doesn’t come up. Either we know what they believe or we don’t. But if I found my dead grandmother’s diary and read that she considered the black couple down the street from her mongrel trash but never treated them with anything but politeness, I’d still retroactively brand her a racist. Good on her for having the manners to not act on her ugly thoughts, but at the end of the day it wouldn’t change her to a non-racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/35 "2015-03-20T18:58:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Hmm. Saying “it looks like that thing you just did was racist” is one thing. Saying, based on one action, “you look like a racist” is another thing, it’s far stronger, and is an attack on that person. Unless they’re happy to be though racist, in which case you’re probably wasting your time. I don’t think it’s necessarily an “attack”, but even if it is, so what? Just engage and see if they might have a point – if they don’t, or if they’re acting like a jerk, then disengage. Are you really that certain that you have no biases or bigotries of any kind? Is any challenge to this notion really all that bad? I’m certainly not absolutely certain. I hope I don’t have any such biases/bigotries, and I strive not to, but I recognize that no one can really be sure that they don’t hold any racist or bigoted views. I want, and I welcome, challenges to any views that I have – even (and especially) if someone thinks that they are racist. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/36 "2015-03-20T19:00:09Z")
The problem, with both **Steophan’s** original statement, and with the thought experiment proposed by **iiandyiiii** , is the use of the phrase “blacks are…” As soon as you start saying “blacks are”, whatever comes next is going to be a racist statement, because it will be a statement based on non-existent racial classifications. Now if a scientist chooses a certain population of people, based on a defined set of characteristics, and posits something about the behavior or intelligence of that group, which he then tests and confirms, he can certainly state the correlation between those characteristics and his findings. But he can’t say “blacks are” without being racist. And racism is a way of thinking that may or may not lead to racist actions. No action is required to be a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/37 "2015-03-20T19:01:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Did the voices tell you this one as well? And here we go again. Thanks for proving beyond all doubt that you’re a bigot. You have no interest in actually discussing this, or any other, subject. With anyone. You have formed opinions that are not based in anything, _literally_ based on nothing as I showed earlier, and you have no interest in challenging them. Look at your posts in this thread, compared with _everyone else’s_. Every other post, even (in fact, especially) those that strongly disagree with me have reasoning and though behind them. You, on the other hand, have nothing but lies, insults, prejudice and paranoia. You’re not even interesting any more, you’re a sad, pathetic parody. Not that I imagine you’ll care, but I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/38 "2015-03-20T19:06:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you really that certain that you have no biases or bigotries of any kind? Is any challenge to this notion really all that bad? I almost certainly do have several, like most people. Some of them I’m aware of, and will try not to act on. Whether there are any I’m not aware of is, well, unanswerable by me by definition. > [@](#): > > I’m certainly not absolutely certain. I hope I don’t have any such biases/bigotries, and I strive not to, but I recognize that no one can really be sure that they don’t hold any racist or bigoted views. I want, and I welcome, challenges to any views that I have – even (and especially) if someone thinks that they are racist. A challenge to a particular view, or set of views, is one thing, a challenge to the person’s entire character is another. And that’s what happens when you call someone racist - you are saying that a defining part of their character. Something you don’t do when you call out particular actions. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/39 "2015-03-20T19:07:41Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > is way too philosophy 101 for me. Yeah, I suppose I have to admit to having studied philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/40 "2015-03-20T19:17:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yeah, I suppose I have to admit to having studied philosophy. It would be better for you to admit you just do not like dibble. otherwise, I can not see a way to excuse theoreticals of racism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=3)