# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/41 "2015-03-20T19:17:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > you’re a bigot. Said the lying racist-loving stalker… > [@](#): > > You have no interest in actually discussing this, or any other, subject. Not in this thread, no. This is the thread where I pit you for being, you know… a lying, racist-loving stalker. > [@](#): > > With anyone. You must not hang out in the other forums a lot. I know, not a lot of racists there to suck up to… > [@](#): > > as I showed earlier Sorry, was this _another_ imaginary post of yours? You know, like the one with all the links to my supposed racism. > [@](#): > > Look at your posts in this thread, compared with _everyone else’s_. Every other post, even (in fact, especially) those that strongly disagree with me have reasoning and though behind them. Look up at the forum title, bud. See where it says “This is the Play Nicely With Crazy Assholes Pit”? What am I saying, as delusional as you are, you might actually think it says that. > [@](#): > > You, on the other hand, have nothing but lies, insults, prejudice and paranoia. …said the delusional, stalking proracist liar… > [@](#): > > Not that I imagine you’ll care, but I’m done with you. Oh, yes! Storming off in a huff, that’s always such a winning tactic… …and you didn’t even bring any of those links where I admit my anti-white racism. Liar! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/42 "2015-03-20T19:38:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If, however, they say (blacks are subhuman), but also treat black people the same as anyone else, and do not in any way urge others to treat them differently, there’s no meaningful way in which they’re racist. The defect in this assertion is that making it clear you hold such a belief encourages others in not only holding a similar belief, but acting on it as well. Anyone believing members of another ethnic group are less than human, who is not rapidly convinced of the errors of his ways by a simple dose of evidence, is a hopeless case, for whom a serious social penalty is entirely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/43 "2015-03-20T19:47:32Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > The problem, with both **Steophan’s** original statement, and with the thought experiment proposed by **iiandyiiii** , is the use of the phrase “blacks are…” As soon as you start saying “blacks are”, whatever comes next is going to be a racist statement, because it will be a statement based on non-existent racial classifications. Now if a scientist chooses a certain population of people, based on a defined set of characteristics, and posits something about the behavior or intelligence of that group, which he then tests and confirms, he can certainly state the correlation between those characteristics and his findings. But he can’t say “blacks are” without being racist. What about “blacks are black?” ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/44 "2015-03-20T19:49:04Z")
“Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things.” -Terry Pratchett ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/45 "2015-03-20T19:55:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What about “blacks are black?” Well, they’re clearly not, are they? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/46 "2015-03-20T20:14:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t this kind of like saying, “The Earth is either a cube, or it is not?” (The Earth, of course, is not a cube.) . . . A little more like saying, “The Earth is a turd.” There is no moral quality or lack of it to a cube, but calling something a turd is pretty inescapably demeaning. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/47 "2015-03-20T20:25:25Z")
Exactly. While individual words may not have a moral quality, the particular choice of words in the context of the audience, conversation/discussion, etc does. To use a well known (and well worn) trope: “ **Steophan** is a wife beater.” Any poster putting that into a discussion and suggesting there’s no moral component implied is either stupid or a liar. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/48 "2015-03-20T20:27:16Z")
The statement cannot be objectively true because subhuman is a judgement call, not a measurement based on facts. Therefore, saying it is racist, or idiotic, or crazy. It is totally NOT analogous to “The earth is a cube” because a cube is an objective object with well-defined dimensions while subhuman is not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/49 "2015-03-20T20:28:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I was all set to challenge **MrDibble** that **Steophan** hadn’t actually used the word “subhuman”… but nope, he did. He really thinks it’s _not racist_ to assert that “blacks are subhuman”. > > **magellan01** – do you agree with **Steophan**? Is it not racist (looking at nothing else but the statement) to assert that blacks are subhuman? I think it is racist. Part of the reason is that the term “subhuman” is a qualitative one clearly implying “less than” I can’t see how that could _not_ be racist. I think the point attempted by the OP is that point to points of fact cannot be racist in and of themselves. If one were to attempt to claim that blacks are not human (not as bad as “subhuman”, IMO), I think it will most likely be a racist statement in context. But it is not, in and of itself, racist. It’s a claim that is either right or wrong. But if one were to espouse that view as his own, I would say that the statement is then clearly racist, as is the speaker. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/50 "2015-03-20T20:30:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What about “blacks are black?” Hardly. They are a wide variety of skin tones, mostly in the brown range, but none of them are even close to being black. Otherwise it’s just a tautology meaning “the people that I classify as black are the people I classify as black”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/51 "2015-03-20T20:31:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > A challenge to a particular view, or set of views, is one thing, a challenge to the person’s entire character is another. And that’s what happens when you call someone racist - you are saying that a defining part of their character. Something you don’t do when you call out particular actions. Whether or not this is true (not that I make it a habit of calling people racist), so what? Why can’t a conversation and education start with a “challenge to the person’s entire character”? If a stranger makes a “challenge to my entire character”, I either brush it off (who cares what a stranger thinks!) or try to engage in a reasoned discussion. I’m certainly not going to react defensively (or at least I’m going to try not to). And if someone I care about does it, I’ll certainly try and engage in a reasoned discussion. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/52 "2015-03-20T20:36:17Z")
If there is such a phenomenon as absolute evil, it consists in treating another human being as a thing.- John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider Not to derail the thread, but I believe that this quote from a book published in 1975 predates the Pratchett reference. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/53 "2015-03-20T20:37:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think it is racist. Part of the reason is that the term “subhuman” is a qualitative one clearly implying “less than” I can’t see how that could _not_ be racist. Okay – so now I think you might understand how I feel about the assertion “blacks are inherently less intelligent, on average, due to genetics” – in my view, “inherently less intelligent” clearly implies “less than”, and I can’t see how that could _not_ be racist. You probably won’t agree, but I think (and hope) that at least you will now see how I view that statement (and maybe other things too). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/54 "2015-03-20T20:44:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What if the statement is true? Would that mean the truth is racist? > > If the truth is racist, then what is to be done about it? Defining something as subhuman can’t be a statement of objective fact. When you define something in terms of being below something else (and that’s what sub means) and you’re not literally describing their location then you’re making a moral judgement. If you say that lions and tigers are different animals then you’re making an objective statement of fact. But if you say that lions are subtigers then you’re stating your subjective opinion on their relative worth. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/55 "2015-03-20T20:44:43Z")
hey, you’re all getting your GD all over my Pitting… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/56 "2015-03-20T20:46:52Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > If there is such a phenomenon as absolute evil, it consists in treating another human being as a thing.- John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider Not to go off on a tangent, but that’s ridiculous. I’m an engineer determining the carrying capacity of an elevator. I treat its passengers as objects that weigh an average of two hundred pounds. Am I being evil? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/57 "2015-03-20T20:55:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I treat its passengers as objects that weigh an average of two hundred pounds. You’re not, though. You’re using a theoretical construct to stand in place of humans. That’s not the same as treating _real_ humans as things. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/58 "2015-03-20T20:59:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay – so now I think you might understand how I feel about the assertion “blacks are inherently less intelligent, on average, due to genetics” – in my view, “inherently less intelligent” clearly implies “less than”, and I can’t see how that could _not_ be racist. > > You probably won’t agree, but I think (and hope) that at least you will now see how I view that statement (and maybe other things too). We’re obviously not going to agree on this. Is it racist to say that blacks, on average, have less height? More melanin in their skin? More melanin in their skin? I say no, regardless of the correctness of the statement. I understand that “intelligence” is different, in that it is something that we greatly value. But that really doesn’t matter as far as the claims that _I’ve seen_ being made. I see it couched as a hypothesis…and that “based on A, B, and C, _it appears that_ blacks may be, on average, less intelligent”. That doesn’t mean it’s true. I means that their is _some evidence_ that points to the difference in performance, writ large, being caused by genetics. I do think you knee-jerkingly bristle at such statements. It surprises me that, you an obviously intelligent, level headed guy(?) would not be able to see past your own assumptions to see that it is one explanation. Also, even if it is true (which, as I’ve said, my money would be against), it makes no statement about any individual black person. Asians my me shorter in stature generally, but no one would claim that has any bearing on Yao Ming. Anyway, just wanted to answer your initial question and follow up. Neither of us have time rehash the same debate AGAIN. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/59 "2015-03-20T21:08:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We’re obviously not going to agree on this. Is it racist to say that blacks, on average, have less height? More melanin in their skin? More melanin in their skin? I say no, regardless of the correctness of the statement. Fine with me. > [@](#): > > I understand that “intelligence” is different, in that it is something that we greatly value. But that really doesn’t matter as far as the claims that _I’ve seen_ being made. I see it couched as a hypothesis…and that “based on A, B, and C, _it appears that_ blacks may be, on average, less intelligent”. That doesn’t mean it’s true. I means that their is _some evidence_ that points to the difference in performance, writ large, being caused by genetics. And I see it quite differently – I see these claims, regardless of the intention, as assertions about the intrinsic human character and human qualities of a huge group. Again, like you view “subhuman”. Even if someone doesn’t think they’re making such an assertion, that’s what I think it is. It doesn’t mean that the person is racist, but I’m going to call the claim racist. > [@](#): > > I do think you knee-jerkingly bristle at such statements. It surprises me that, you an obviously intelligent, level headed guy(?) would not be able to see past your own assumptions to see that it is one explanation. Also, even if it is true (which, as I’ve said, my money would be against), it makes no statement about any individual black person. Asians my me shorter in stature generally, but no one would claim that has any bearing on Yao Ming. Right, but “on average, blacks are ‘less human’ or ‘more subhuman’” makes “no statement about any individual black person”… but it’s still racist (and I think you’ll agree). > [@](#): > > Anyway, just wanted to answer your initial question and follow up. Neither of us have time rehash the same debate AGAIN. That’s fine. We’ve identified the core of our difference here, I think – I see claims about the inherent intelligence of a group the same way you see claims that they are “subhuman”. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/60 "2015-03-20T21:14:24Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Define “subhuman” in a neutral and objective manner. Definition 7: Humans who ride the subway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=4)