# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/81 "2015-03-21T07:37:28Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It isn’t going to inflame or encourage the righteous or morons or righteous morons. Don’t want to encourage the righteous morons, of course. You get bent out of shape without any encouragement as is. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/82 "2015-03-21T10:41:09Z")
Was that necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/83 "2015-03-21T11:29:40Z")
Yes. It was. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/84 "2015-03-21T11:36:08Z")
I think his question was rhetorical. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/85 "2015-03-21T11:39:51Z")
[QUOTE=iandyiiii] And (speaking to others) it shouldn’t be scary or a big deal for someone to say “what you said/did makes me think you’re a racist”. [/QUOTE] It’s supposed to be scary and a big deal when someone calls you a racist. It is supposed to end the debate immediately. And it is not going to be the case that you can have the calm debate about whether or not you are a racist. People who make the accusation on the Internet ignore everything said after the accusation is made. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/86 "2015-03-21T11:48:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s supposed to be scary and a big deal when someone calls you a racist. It is supposed to end the debate immediately. No it’s not, at least not for everyone. I’ve definitely been a part of productive conversations that started with someone calling someone else a racist (or something similar). I’m sure some people do this to shut down debate, but I don’t (for one thing, I usually try to call out assertions and statements and not posters on the Dope). > [@](#): > > And it is not going to be the case that you can have the calm debate about whether or not you are a racist. People who make the accusation on the Internet ignore everything said after the accusation is made. Maybe sometimes, but not always. It’s entirely possible to have a calm debate about whether what was just said or done was racist or not. I’ve had many such discussions on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/87 "2015-03-21T12:58:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not, at least not for everyone. I’ve definitely been a part of productive conversations that started with someone calling someone else a racist (or something similar). So have I, but only when the accused person ignored the accusation (and everyone chiming in to repeat the accusation). It wouldn’t be possible to have a calm debate (for instance) with **MrDibble** about race. We have already had such a debate in GD. Once he has shot his bolt with [ul][li]“There’s no such thing as race!” [_]A single example disproves an average, and [_]"THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS RACE!!!'[/ul][/li]we tend to fall back on the only other things he can say - [ul][li]Nuh uh, and[\*]racistracistracist[/ul][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/88 "2015-03-21T13:23:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Gosh, **Chief Pedant** has taught you well. But next time, you can just say “SIRE”, we’ll all know what you mean. As usual, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have no idea what **Chief Pedant** has to do with this, or what SIRE is. Google didn’t help there either, there are several meaning to that acronym, none of which seem relevant But, as you’re clearly disagreeing with me, you somehow thing that taking people at their word that they are black is racist. Giving further proof that you have no idea what “racism” actually is. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/89 "2015-03-21T14:03:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/90 "2015-03-21T14:26:37Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It’s pretty well accepted in the US today that black men are incarcerated at a disproportionately high rate. > > I’ve heard that enough times in enough different contexts that I’m pretty sure it’s uncontroversially accepted as true. I do not know whether that’s based on individual-self-reported-race or genetic markers which indicate African ancestry, or something else entirely. Does that lack mean that in fact I really don’t know anything at all, and am racist for even thinking I knew something? I’ve thought a lot more about this, and I’ve realized that there are some contexts, such as the one you describe, in which it does make sense to say “black people are…” It has to do with whether you are using the term to describe circumstances affecting some percentage of black people, or whether the intent of the phrase is to include _all_ black people. “Black people are more likely to [do something], [have something happen to them], [be in certain circumstances]…” = Can be a non-racist statement, depending on context. “[All] black people [are something] [behave a certain way] [have certain characteristics]…” = Racist. It’s the implied “all” in those phrases that makes them racist. This is why race is such a difficult subject to discuss. The nuances of language can make a huge difference. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/91 "2015-03-21T14:39:24Z")
Let’s say I have a dog. I treat my dog with nothing but love and kindness. I don’t expect my dog to go out and get a job or even help out around the house because I know he’s not capable of doing so, he’s just a dog, not a human. Sometimes my dog even acts in ways that make him almost seem like a person but deep down I know he doesn’t experience emotions in the same way or see the world in the same way I do because he’s not a person, he’s just a dog. I love my dog and would never hurt him, I just don’t expect too much from him in terms of human behavior such as impulse control. When he acts like a human I think it’s just precious but deep down I know he’s just a dog. But if I felt the same way about a person that looked different from me I’d be a big ole racist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/92 "2015-03-21T14:48:31Z")
I have to laugh at the arrogance and stupidity of telling someone from South Africa they don’t understand racism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/93 "2015-03-21T15:31:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As usual, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Oh, hi. Still around? Guess that’s one more thing you’re a liar about. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what **Chief Pedant** has to do with this, or what SIRE is. So you were lying when you said you actually read the race realist threads then. > [@](#): > > Giving further proof that you have no idea what “racism” actually is. Says the guy who thinks “Blacks are subhuman” isn’t a racist thing to say… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/94 "2015-03-21T15:33:14Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > But if I felt the same way about a person that looked different from me I’d be a big ole racist. No, I think it’s making analogies comparing people to dogs that makes you a big old racist. Are we supposed to be glad it wasn’t cockroaches? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/95 "2015-03-21T15:42:20Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I’ve thought a lot more about this, and I’ve realized that there are some contexts, such as the one you describe, in which it does make sense to say “black people are…” It has to do with whether you are using the term to describe circumstances affecting some percentage of black people, or whether the intent of the phrase is to include _all_ black people. > > “Black people are more likely to [do something], [have something happen to them], [be in certain circumstances]…” = Can be a non-racist statement, depending on context. > > “[All] black people [are something] [behave a certain way] [have certain characteristics]…” = Racist. > > It’s the implied “all” in those phrases that makes them racist. > > This is why race is such a difficult subject to discuss. The nuances of language can make a huge difference. Ignorance fought. I don’t think that’s the rule you want either, though… I suspect you would view “black people are more likely to be unintelligent” or “black people are more frequently criminals due to their underlying flawed genetics” as racist statements. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/96 "2015-03-21T15:45:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I think it’s making analogies comparing people to dogs that makes you a big old racist. Are we supposed to be glad it wasn’t cockroaches? No, making that analogy doesn’t make someone racist. I think we can add “analogy” to the long, and ever growing, list of things that you don’t even slightly understand. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/97 "2015-03-21T15:50:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So you were lying when you said you actually read the race realist threads then. Nope. I just have no idea what they have to do with this thread, or what SIRE is. If it’s something that was mentioned in those threads, it’s obscure enough that a quick Google won’t show what it is. Using acronyms without expanding them on first use is just bad writing. The least of your flaws on display in this thread, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/98 "2015-03-21T15:52:17Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I have to laugh at the arrogance and stupidity of telling someone from South Africa they don’t understand racism. Nonsense. Being from a place where there’s been a lot of racism, or having suffered a great deal of it, doesn’t automatically grant understanding. Dibble sees racism everywhere, whether it’s happening or not. Except, hilariously enough, when he’s the one being racist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/99 "2015-03-21T15:54:16Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > “[All] black people [are something] [behave a certain way] [have certain characteristics]…” = Racist. So, these statements are all racist? Black people are incredibly creative. Black people are intelligent. Black people are more intelligent than others. Black people have higher IQs. Black people have a healthy outlook on life. Black people are good athletes. Black people have beautiful skin. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/100 "2015-03-21T15:58:07Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Let’s say I have a dog. I treat my dog with nothing but love and kindness. I don’t expect my dog to go out and get a job or even help out around the house because I know he’s not capable of doing so, he’s just a dog, not a human. Sometimes my dog even acts in ways that make him almost seem like a person but deep down I know he doesn’t experience emotions in the same way or see the world in the same way I do because he’s not a person, he’s just a dog. I love my dog and would never hurt him, I just don’t expect too much from him in terms of human behavior such as impulse control. When he acts like a human I think it’s just precious but deep down I know he’s just a dog. > > But if I felt the same way about a person that looked different from me I’d be a big ole racist. No you wouldn’t. You would be a racist if you thought an entire group, or most of a group, of people that we would consider a race were similar to your dog. Not one individual. One can think that Charles Manson is subhuman and not be a racist. Or any other individual, of any clot or race, that acts in a subhuman way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=6)