# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/121 "2015-03-21T19:02:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How can there be a “statement” without it being uttered or written? Statements don’t exist in the abstract. If it doesn’t exist, then it’s even more clear that it’s not racist. You’re not arguing against my point here, you’re reinforcing it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/122 "2015-03-21T19:04:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If it doesn’t exist, then it’s even more clear that it’s not racist. You’re not arguing against my point here, you’re reinforcing it. Only in the sense that if you claim to have seen a unicorn, and I say that unicorns don’t exist, then I’m re-enforcing your point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/123 "2015-03-21T19:14:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Only in the sense that if you claim to have seen a unicorn, and I say that unicorns don’t exist, then I’m re-enforcing your point. Er, no. If I said that no unicorns are racist, and you said that unicorns don’t exist, you would be supporting my point. Thought experiment time. Alan and Bob are twins, and both, in all their dealings with people act in a way that no-one would consider racist. Alan thinks the thought “blacks are subhuman” repeatedly, but at no point, in dealing with black people, or others, does he say that, or act in any other racist way. Bob never thinks that. What is there that anyone could see that would make Alan racist but not Bob? My contention is that if it’s literally impossible for a thing to be detected, and it has no effect on anything (those are ways of restating the same thing, really), then it doesn’t exist. “Alan’s racism” does not exist, any more than “Bob’s racism”. You may think that it’s simply philosophical bullshittery, and you’d be right to some extent, but there are repeated claims that, despite someone neither doing or saying anything racist, they can somehow be determined to be racist. MrDibble does this all the fucking time, he’s done it several times in this thread, because he doesn’t understand how words work. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/124 "2015-03-21T19:16:11Z")
I’m going to add that someone said that it all sounds like Philosophy 101 - the world would be a better place if everyone had to study that, at minimum. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/125 "2015-03-21T19:17:54Z")
Eh, saying a statement isn’t inherently offensive unless it’s written or spoken is like saying a person isn’t inherently happy until he’s born (or conceived, if you’re so inclined). It’s complete nonsense to speak of the attributes of something that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/126 "2015-03-21T19:27:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh, saying a statement isn’t inherently offensive unless it’s written or spoken is like saying a person isn’t inherently happy until he’s born (or conceived, if you’re so inclined). It’s complete nonsense to speak of the attributes of something that doesn’t exist. Which is why I’d rather people stopped saying that it is inherently offensive, or that racism is separate from actions in any way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/127 "2015-03-21T19:28:51Z")
Must be a Taoist thing. The word that can be spoken is not the eternal word… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/128 "2015-03-21T19:42:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m going to add that someone said that it all sounds like Philosophy 101 That phrase as written is completely neutral, but in reality it is never, ever used as a compliment :). ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/129 "2015-03-21T20:07:19Z")
By Steophan’s logic, the phrase “Black people are all inherently inferior to white people and we should immediately return to widespread slavery” is also not racist, since they’re just words. At which point, one wonders what precisely is the damn point in making such an incredibly fine and utterly useless distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/130 "2015-03-21T20:20:16Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > By Steophan’s logic, the phrase “Black people are all inherently inferior to white people and we should immediately return to widespread slavery” is also not racist, since they’re just words. > > At which point, one wonders what precisely is the damn point in making such an incredibly fine and utterly useless distinction. The point is that people should focus on whether someone’s actions are discriminatory, not waste time on pointless speculation about someone else’s inner, unshared thoughts. This started because of the OPs habit of calling people racist based on no evidence whatsoever, but on his own guesses about their thoughts and motivations. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/131 "2015-03-21T20:25:05Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > By Steophan’s logic, the phrase “Black people are all inherently inferior to white people and we should immediately return to widespread slavery” is also not racist, since they’re just words. > > At which point, one wonders what precisely is the damn point in making such an incredibly fine and utterly useless distinction. I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe, just maybe, suggesting that people being enslaved is somewhat, minor though it may be, into the treating people differently category. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/132 "2015-03-21T20:43:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The point is that people should focus on whether someone’s actions are discriminatory, not waste time on pointless speculation about someone else’s inner, unshared thoughts. > This started because of the OPs habit of calling people racist based on no evidence whatsoever, but on his own guesses about their thoughts and motivations. It’s pretty clear now that the point is people should not waste time on pointless discussion with you about the attributes of non-existent things. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/133 "2015-03-21T20:51:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s pretty clear now that the point is people should not waste time on pointless discussion with you about the attributes of non-existent things. Tell that to the person that started this thread to do precisely that, then. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/134 "2015-03-21T21:16:13Z")
Can a racist understand philosophy and basic logic enough to mock the teaching of an introductory course in philosophy and logic? Why yes. That doesn’t make his racist examples any less racist. Is a racist philosophy instructor sub-human? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/135 "2015-03-21T21:35:22Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > By Steophan’s logic, the phrase “Black people are all inherently inferior to white people and we should immediately return to widespread slavery” is also not racist, since they’re just words. > > At which point, one wonders what precisely is the damn point in making such an incredibly fine and utterly useless distinction. I guess maybe he’s making a point that words themselves aren’t racist and that it’s people who say the words who are actually racist. The problem is that this argument ends up making him look worse. We’ve switched from the argument that the statement “black are subhuman” is racist to the argument that Steophan is racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/136 "2015-03-21T22:17:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Bullshit. Bullshit to you. Great argument! ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/137 "2015-03-21T22:24:23Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I don’t think that’s the rule you want either, though… I suspect you would view “black people are more likely to be unintelligent” or “black people are more frequently criminals due to their underlying flawed genetics” as racist statements. Absolutely – that’s why I said that the “more likely to” construction “can be a non-racist statement, depending on context.” To sum up: “Black people are more likely to…” = sometimes racist, sometimes not “[All] black people are…” = always racist So as **kaylasdad99** indicated, all of the statements listed by **magellan01** are racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/138 "2015-03-21T22:26:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So have I, but only when the accused person ignored the accusation (and everyone chiming in to repeat the accusation). > > It wouldn’t be possible to have a calm debate (for instance) with **MrDibble** about race. We have already had such a debate in GD. Once he has shot his bolt with [ul][li]“There’s no such thing as race!” [_]A single example disproves an average, and [_]"THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS RACE!!!'[/ul][/li]we tend to fall back on the only other things he can say - [ul][li]Nuh uh, and[\*]racistracistracist[/ul][/li]Regards, > Shodan **MrDibble** , stop calling all these people racist. They are delicate flowers and are terrified of continuing a conversation in which someone might think they are racist. By expressing your thoughts about their posts, and what you think they might be actually expressing, you are scaring them into pulling into their turtle shells. They just can’t take it – they can’t face the possibility that they might have actually said something racist, or they are so terrified that society might think they’re a racist and do the terrible things that society does to racists [hint – it’s pretty much nothing]. So you can see why they’re so terrified. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/139 "2015-03-21T22:30:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So have I, but only when the accused person ignored the accusation (and everyone chiming in to repeat the accusation). > > It wouldn’t be possible to have a calm debate (for instance) with **MrDibble** about race. We have already had such a debate in GD. Once he has shot his bolt with [ul][li]“There’s no such thing as race!” [_]A single example disproves an average, and [_]"THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS RACE!!!'[/ul][/li]we tend to fall back on the only other things he can say - [ul][li]Nuh uh, and[\*]racistracistracist[/ul][/li]Regards, > Shodan **MrDibble** (as a coloured South African) is a man who’s lived through tougher times than you’ve ever known. His perspective on racism isn’t merely based on “things that internet nerds annoy me with” (Me, speaking as a very nerdy nerd). ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/140 "2015-03-21T22:34:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Which is why I’d rather people stopped saying that it is inherently offensive, or that racism is separate from actions in any way. I think the problem here is that we are using the generally accepted definition of racism, which can be found in any dictionary or reference work on the subject, which begins with the words “a belief”. Racism is a belief, which means that it is something that takes place in the minds of racists, entirely separate from their actions. Your definition of racism appears to be something different, that requires action. By the generally accepted definition, a belief that blacks are subhuman is racist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=8)