# Steophan: '"Blacks are subhuman" is either true or false, and by itself has no moral component' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514 "2015-03-20T17:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/141 "2015-03-21T22:54:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it hasn’t. Please show any post in this thread where I show or advocate prejudice of any sort, whether against race or otherwise. I’m not going to humor a racist. Your illustration of logic is itself racist. When you could have gone the traditional route of “the moon is made of green cheese” you gave us the full SAE song and dance. Your example is not neutral, it’s racist. You aren’t by any chance a brother of a college fraternity, are you? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/142 "2015-03-21T23:12:24Z")
The fact that you are asking the question means you are entertaining the idea that it might be true. If you think that there’s a possibility that “blacks are subhuman” can be true, you are a racist, and have just made a racist statement, since a racist statement is a statement made as a result of a racist thought. If I ask “Is **Steophan** subhuman?” I’m clearly entertaining the idea that he might be. And I am honestly to the point where I really am considering that. Somethings I think seeing racists as subhuman and letting them know this is the only way to get through to them. Maybe that can shake them out of their lack of awareness of their privilege. If **Steophan** is correct, then we can ask if he is subhuman in any forum here, and it won’t be an insult. Anyone with warnings to spare want to take him up on that? ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/143 "2015-03-21T23:19:49Z")
This is silly. Steophan’s whole argument seems to be ‘If a statement exists in a vacuum, it doesn’t have causes or effects.’ Which would very possibly be true, if a statement could exist in a vacuum, but since it can’t, it’s all a load of silliness. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/144 "2015-03-21T23:50:51Z")
Wait. In the OP, MrDibble quotes Steophan saying that an opinion can be racist. How is “Blacks are subhuman” not an opinion, and not a racist one at that? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/145 "2015-03-22T00:11:54Z")
Steophan: Are you unaware that making an utterance is an action? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/146 "2015-03-22T00:50:26Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > **MrDibble** (as a coloured South African) is a man who’s lived through tougher times than you’ve ever known. His perspective on racism isn’t merely based on “things that internet nerds annoy me with” (Me, speaking as a very nerdy nerd). True. He’s had to live through life as himself. Look, when someone goes through something horrible. as he claims, one of two things happens. One is that they realizes what true racism is and would never want to associate something with racism didn’t rise to that level. The other option is that they become demented, seeing racism everywhere, like he did here with **Ann Hedonia**. And like he’s done with me numerous times. Once for using the word “golly”. :rolleyes: He’s a a demented douche bag. Demented. And a douche bag. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/147 "2015-03-22T00:57:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **MrDibble** , stop calling all these people racist. They are delicate flowers and are terrified of continuing a conversation in which someone might think they are racist. By expressing your thoughts about their posts, and what you think they might be actually expressing, you are scaring them into pulling into their turtle shells. They just can’t take it – they can’t face the possibility that they might have actually said something racist, or they are so terrified that society might think they’re a racist and do the terrible things that society does to racists [hint – it’s pretty much nothing]. So you can see why they’re so terrified. And now you’re treading into **Mr. Dibble-level douchebaggery**. Arguing that the word doesn’t have the power it is is disingenuous—at best. You want to have it both ways, as I’ve said before. You want to be able to apply it easily, then also have it’s power used to insult and stifle debate. But you go ahead and close ranks with that demented imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/148 "2015-03-22T01:14:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And now you’re treading into **Mr. Dibble-level douchebaggery**. Arguing that the word doesn’t have the power it is is disingenuous—at best. You want to have it both ways, as I’ve said before. You want to be able to apply it easily, then also have it’s power used to insult and stifle debate. But you go ahead and close ranks with that demented imbecile. I generally choose not to “apply” the term to posters – rather I apply it to assertions. **MrDibble** does things differently. That’s fine – some people choose not to consider _any_ statement as racist, unless it explicitly advocates violence or oppression towards one race. I choose to call out the assertions I see as racist, and he calls out the posters he sees as racist. If I disagree with **MrDibble** I might engage him on it (and I have in the past, I’m pretty sure). I don’t “want it both ways” – for one thing, I don’t think it necessarily stifles debate. I think some people just can’t handle it, and can’t consider that there might be a tiny chance that the assertion they are making is racist. Why is this such a big fucking deal? Why should it cancel any possibility of a reasonable discussion if someone says “what you just said is racist”? Maybe they’re wrong, but so what? Then discuss. If it “stifles debate”, it’s because some people can’t handle the possibility that they might have posted something racist, or that they might even be a little racist. As I’ve said before, if I say or do something someone sees as racist, I want to be called on it – otherwise I might not know. Most people who say or do racist things aren’t aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/149 "2015-03-22T01:17:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most people who say or do racist things aren’t aware of it. I don’t think I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/150 "2015-03-22T01:19:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think I agree with that. Expand on this if you like. I’ll note that I didn’t mean it as an excuse – not being aware something is racist does not excuse racism. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/151 "2015-03-22T01:23:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Expand on this if you like. I’ll note that I didn’t mean it as an excuse – not being aware something is racist does not excuse racism. I didn’t think you meant it as an excuse. I just don’t think most people who do or say racist things aren’t aware of it. I do think that a lot of racist thoughts are unexamined, though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/152 "2015-03-22T05:08:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, actually we haven’t. Sorry, let me be more precise: We’ve already established (_for anyone who isn’t an insane racist_) that you have no clue what racism is. Dude, when even your Klanmate **mags** is telling you your statement is racist, you might want to walk it back… > [@](#): > > Claiming something that’s demonstrably false, as shown by me HA Ha ha! Yes, you keep “showing” us, it’s going swimmingly well for you. > [@](#): > > No, I changed my mind when I saw that utter fucking idiocy you continued to post. Translation: "I lied, I’m a racist liar. I just couldn’t keep my nose out of your ass." > [@](#): > > I’m not remembering every obscure acronym from threads started years ago. Yes, _keep_ proving that you lied when you said you read those threads. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t appear on the first or last page of the main thread (started before I joined this board) so it’s neither relevant to the OP or to the current debate. It’s perfectly valid to showing you’re a habitual liar. Quickly skimming the first and last pages of _one_ thread that has scores of pages (and only after you’ve been caught in a lie about it) is not the same as reading those (multiple) race realist threads. Which is what you said you did. Which you said after I challenged you on the idiocy of saying I called **CP** , **mags** and **Shodie** racist because of the shit they actually posts in those threads. Threads which you’ve just shown you did not read. Ergo: Liar. You lie. > [@](#): > > Correct. That you think any statement of fact can be racist Keep saying “Blacks are subhuman” is just a statement of fact, it _totally_ makes you look non-racist. 😉 > [@](#): > > Already done that. Linking to a Pit thread on another board (where I _owned_ your punk ass, incidentally) is not a link to my admitting racism. You’ve got nothing, liar. > [@](#): > > Got told off by a moderator for doing so, so I can’t do it again Coward. You had no problem arguing with a mod about “cleverly” calling me a cunt (of course, that went sooo well for you) > [@](#): > > Not that I’d call anyone else who makes such statements racist, of course Of course. You’ve already shown many times that you don’t see racism, are \*functionally incapable \*of seeing actual racism. Both in the race realists and in George Zimmerman. But you are delusional enough to see it where it doesn’t exist. Where you have absolutely zero evidence for it existing. And then accuse me of doing the same thing. That’s called “projection”. I just haven’t figured out why, yet. I mean, I don’t go around in a Winnie-The-Pooh outfit, so it can’t be repressed sexual urges on your part. I think it’s just because you’re a racist-loving, lying piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/153 "2015-03-22T05:16:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And more bigotry against the mentally unwell. This thread isn’t going well for those who think they’re the “good guys”. Keep trying to turn the pitting around, I’m sure it’ll kick in any day now. > [@](#): > > No idea if **Smapti** is actually ill, but that’s irrelevant. **Smapti** ’s insane, as any cop thread shows. But he’s only insane in the Law&Order sphere. And it’s the kind of insanity that is just an extension of logical thought out past where it’s sensible. He doesn’t stalk one person from thread to thread to accuse them of imaginary crimes. While ignoring the same crime in others. And he posts lovely music polls, so he’s got compensations for his insanity. What good are _you_, you lying sack of racist-loving shit? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/154 "2015-03-22T05:20:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > He doesn’t stalk one person from thread to thread to accuse them of imaginary crimes. You stalked me to another fucking board to start an argument, so once again you have no moral high ground here. The rest of comments I’ve already shown to be false, irrelevant and/or meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/155 "2015-03-22T05:21:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Steophan: Are you unaware that making an utterance is an action? No, I’ve made the point repeatedly that it is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/156 "2015-03-22T05:46:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You stalked me to another fucking board to start an argument No, I read a thread I read quite often (but don’t post to - _you_ know how that works, right :dubious:), and there you were, taking your this-board failings and whining for sympathy/high-fives (which you totally didn’t get, I might add. The _whole internet_ can apparently see what a crybaby pussy you are). So I posted - a one-time thing. Now, if I made a _habit_ of that, _that’d_ be stalking. And great for emphasizing your cowardice - not having the balls to pit me here. > [@](#): > > , so once again you have no moral high ground here. Dude, my morality is so far above your lying racist-loving ass, it’s like I’m on Everest and you’re in the Marianas… > [@](#): > > The rest of comments I’ve already shown to be false, irrelevant and/or meaningless. …in your own head, maybe. Although you’re such a habitual liar, you’re probably lying to yourself about that, too. What a pathetic worm you are. And no link to me admitting racism yet. Liar. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/157 "2015-03-22T06:18:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’ve claimed this before, but have not been able to substantiate it. You substantiated it yourself, quite nicely, with your “I know a Black by his skin and hair” routine. That and the “Racial isn’t racist” schtick, of course. > [@](#): > > You’re twisted mind sees racism everywhere. Naah, just when I see racists. Especially ones without decent grammar…😛 > [@](#): > > The prefect example is that you classify **Ann Hedonia** as a racist for a post that had zero racism. Like I said, I don’t trust the monkey with the keys to his own cell, I’m not going to trust a racist to tell me what’s racist. > [@](#): > > If anything, she was comparing humans to dogs, to illustrate a point. Humans “that looked different from me”, specifically But she’s perfectly capable of coming back in here and explaining her piss-poor choice of analogy anytime. > [@](#): > > But your fetid mind contorts that to RACISM! Tortured analogies where people “who look different” are compared to animals don’t need any contorting to take as racist. Ask **Chief Pedant** all about it at the next Konvention. > [@](#): > > Of course, if you weren’t a weasel-brained hateful scumbag you’d realize that and apologize to **Ann Hedonia**. I’ll apologize whenever she explains her stupid analogy. > [@](#): > > You dumb broken fuck. Coming from you, I’ll take that as a compliment. If a crazy racist shitstain like yourself thinks I’m broken, I must be doing _something_ right. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/158 "2015-03-22T07:31:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I read a thread I read quite often (but don’t post to - _you_ know how that works, right :dubious:), and there you were, taking your this-board failings and whining for sympathy/high-fives (which you totally didn’t get, I might add. The _whole internet_ can apparently see what a crybaby pussy you are). So I posted - a one-time thing. Looking for sympathy and high fives? It’s clear _you’ve_ never read the thread you’re talking about if you think that’s why people post there. What I got was what I wanted, which is confirmation that you’re an absolute cockwomble. [/quote] > [@](#): > > Dude, my morality is so far above your lying racist-loving ass, it’s like I’m on Everest and you’re in the Marianas… Just based solely on this thread, that’s not true. You’re throwing out wild accusations at people with no evidence (not that that’s unusual for you), calling people racists, liars, and whatever else, without cause. If you actually were better than anyone else, you’d be both willing and able to actually refute what anyone’s said, rather than continuing with the spittle-flecked rage and paranoia that characterises your posts. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - get help. At the absolute minimum, you need some way to get some perspective, and quite possibly much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/159 "2015-03-22T07:39:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not going to trust a racist to tell me what’s racist. Here, ultimately, is the biggest problem with your worldview. You keep on throwing out “racist” as an attack on people, yet think there’s no way they can know whether something is racist or not. But you’re not prepared to do anything about it, not prepared to explain anything or clarify your points, or even explain why something upsets you personally. You just scream “RACIST!!!” over and over again, as if doing so actually means anything. And the irony is that, when called out on your own bigotry, which you are happy to express in derogatory terms, you double down on it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514/160 "2015-03-22T08:03:07Z")
A more general question is: _When is a “factual” claim racist?_ On this topic I’d ask about a recent post in Elections: Is the following post racist? > [@Will there be a shake-up in Ferguson, MO's next city elections?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-be-a-shake-up-in-ferguson-mos-next-city-elections/714937/6): > > Fear not- in less than a decade, all the white residents will have fled Ferguson. The town will be overwhelmingly black, and its city government will be nearly all black. > > When that happens, Eric Holder can pat himself on the back for a job well done. True, there won’t be any shops left for honest black residents to buy things at (or for the next Michael Brown to steal from), but the government will be all black. > > And isn’t that what counts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-blacks-are-subhuman-is-either-true-or-false-and-by-itself-has-no-moral-component/715514.md?page=9)