# Steophan is an arrogant and amoral prick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735 "2012-11-21T17:24:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/141 "2012-11-23T18:27:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, actually, your evidence is more about your inference of the meaning. Did the confrontation take place in the immediate vicinity of the truck? I had thought it was some distance therefrom, yes? Rather what one might expect if Martin was walking where the truck could not go, and so Z. got out and followed him on foot. Again, an inference, but having the same weight as your own. > > Old joke. Guy rolls through a stop sign, gets pulled over. Bitches at the cop says “Hey, I slowed down!” Cop starts to whack him with his stick, says “You want me to stop, or just go slower?” So, you’ve got nothing, then. Figures. I think it’s pretty despicable to accuse someone of chasing, attacking, and murdering someone and then, when someone shows you evidence that it didn’t happen like that, instead of showing your evidence that it did, to make jokes about it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/142 "2012-11-23T18:31:23Z")
You are our beacon for fair and impartial debate, shining ever before us, inspiring us by your example. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/143 "2012-11-23T18:38:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are our beacon for fair and impartial debate, shining ever before us, inspiring us by your example. In that case, we’re all fucked. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/144 "2012-11-24T03:14:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You are our beacon for fair and impartial debate, shining ever before us, inspiring us by your example. I’d say less of a beacon and more of a wet firecracker. > [@Steophan](#): > > In that case, we’re all fucked. And here we have confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/145 "2012-11-24T16:28:14Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’ve contributed to the thread - and I’m subscribed so I keep reading and pot-shot posting every once in a while - but it’s a friggin’ fool’s game at this point. It is no longer a “humble opinion and speculation thread,” it’s two parts lawspeak minutia, three parts Matlock, four parts SVU, inside of an NRA meeting rolled up into various explanations about how no one deserves to get attacked for merely walking through a back yard. Whether it’s Martin or Zimmerman who’s been unfairly attacked depends on the poster. > > It’s about a step away from Tot-mom territory. First of all, I LOL’d because you are exactly right. Second, what is “Tot-mom territory”? Regards -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/146 "2012-11-24T16:34:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have to post here to note with wry amusement how both sides of this argument seem to regard me as on the opposing side. > > I deduce this from the phrase “Even Bricker says…” which seems to suggest that even though he’s your side, he agrees with me on this much. When **Terr** says “Even Bricker…” it’s because I’m pointing out flaws on the Zimmerman side; when **betenoire39** says it, I’m pointing out flaws on the Martin side. That’s because you’re a slut. Just sayin’ is all. Kindest Regards, 😃 -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/147 "2012-11-24T18:56:32Z")
I just looked over the last couple of pages of that thread. I am so glad I didn’t get drawn into that. Bitching that Zimmerman didn’t get drug tested? Really? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/148 "2012-11-24T19:00:21Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I just looked over the last couple of pages of that thread. I am so glad I didn’t get drawn into that. Bitching that Zimmerman didn’t get drug tested? Really? Yeah, why da fuck anyone would be concerned about whether a person prescribed Adderall and Temazepam had been taking his med’s on the night he mistook a kid walking home from the shops as a burglar he’d seen 3 weeks prior, and then shot him dead, is completely beyond me. Can someone explain what all that is about? Go on, tell me \*“You don’t know he thought he was a burglar, he just said he thought he looked suspicious!” \* Yeah, that’s why he had to mention seeing him outside a house where he’d already reported seeing somebody acting black and suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/149 "2012-11-24T19:32:36Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Yeah, why da fuck anyone would be concerned about whether a person prescribed Adderall and Temazepam had been taking his med’s on the night he mistook a kid walking home from the shops as a burglar he’d seen 3 weeks prior, and then shot him dead, is completely beyond me. > > Can someone explain what all that is about? You can be concerned with whatever you want. The law does not take your concerns into account. In my 15 years in law enforcement the number of times we have drug tested a suspect is exactly zero. And it is not legal to do so without a judicial order. Since drug use is not an element in any crime that was being investigated. And since there appears to be no probable cause to indicate drug use a judicial order (which would be highly unusual to begin with) would be pretty much impossible. In my state you can’t even ask for consent without a reasonable suspicion. So people are arguing over something that can’t be done legally, is never done but some still think it should have been done in this case. Lets have a state enact a law in which they make it legal to drug test every suspect during an investigation or even after an arrest and watch the outrage. No way it would pass constitutional scrutiny and the ACLU would be all over it. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/150 "2012-11-24T19:42:06Z")
I bet Z will be quick to bring up his med’s when he’s found guilty and MOM is pleading mitigating circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/151 "2012-11-24T19:44:33Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I bet Z will be quick to bring up his med’s when he’s found guilty and MOM is pleading mitigating circumstances. In the (unlikely) event he’s found guilty he’d be foolish not to. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/152 "2012-11-24T19:50:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > In the (unlikely) event he’s found guilty he’d be foolish not to. What’s your point? My point is, why wouldn’t it be relevant whether a person prescribed mood-altering drugs had been taking them on the night they killed someone? Do you really think that’s the sort of thing people tasked with investigating these things should be ignoring? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/153 "2012-11-24T20:16:24Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > My point is, why wouldn’t it be relevant whether a person prescribed mood-altering drugs had been taking them on the night they killed someone? Do you really think that’s the sort of thing people tasked with investigating these things should be ignoring? Why do you think the police on the scene had any reason to suspect he was taking any sort of mind-altering drugs? Even if they did, it’s been repeatedly explained to you that they can’t just drug test for the hell of it. If he was acting like he was on drugs, that’s a different matter (although you surprise me by being anti-drugs), but he’s under no obligation to tell the police about them unprompted. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/154 "2012-11-24T20:56:02Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I bet Z will be quick to bring up his med’s when he’s found guilty and MOM is pleading mitigating circumstances. Doesn’t make it constitutional to force him to submit to a blood test. As a detective there are a lot of things it would be nice to know about a suspect in an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/155 "2012-11-24T21:07:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why do you think the police on the scene had any reason to suspect he was taking any sort of mind-altering drugs? They didn’t at the scene of the crime before they’d started any kind of investigation, obviously, but the way you are saying it, they should have just let him go home on the basis of his horrendous… wait, did I say “horrendous?” I meant, insignificant, injuries. Had they accessed TM’s phone before they let the battery charge die, they’d have known who he was and that he’d been chatting to his g/f moments before he’d been killed, and that’d have changed the complexion of Z’s treatment remarkably, don’t you think? > [@Steophan](#): > > Even if they did, it’s been repeatedly explained to you that they can’t just drug test for the hell of it. You’re calling verifying why a young man died “for the hell of it”? > [@Steophan](#): > > If he was acting like he was on drugs, that’s a different matter (although you surprise me by being anti-drugs), but he’s under no obligation to tell the police about them unprompted. Some drugs are impossible to detect just by looking at someone. Strange, but true. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/156 "2012-11-24T21:20:01Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Doesn’t make it constitutional to force him to submit to a blood test. As a detective there are a lot of things it would be nice to know about a suspect in an investigation. He shouldn’t need to be forced. If he genuinely wanted to clear up the whole mess, he should have been happy to do such a simple, minimally intrusive test if he knew it’d help bolster his case. Only a person with something to hide would worry excessively that something might be found that goes against them. If Z is making an affirmative defence he “may be exonerated if he can demonstrate that he had an honest and reasonable belief that another’s use of force was unlawful and that the defendant’s conduct was necessary to protect himself.” Surely part of that demonstration should include that he was fit to be carrying a gun that night? By his own admitted behaviour, he obviously very nearly wasn’t, as he alleges that it was almost taken off him, and it was only pure luck really that he’s here to tell his tale and Trayvon isn’t stewing in a jail awaiting trial for slaying the poor, conscientious neighbourhood watch guy who mentored little black infants. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/157 "2012-11-24T21:55:58Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He shouldn’t need to be forced. If he genuinely wanted to clear up the whole mess, he should have been happy to do such a simple, minimally intrusive test if he knew it’d help bolster his case. Only a person with something to hide would worry excessively that something might be found that goes against them. > > If Z is making an affirmative defence he “may be exonerated if he can demonstrate that he had an honest and reasonable belief that another’s use of force was unlawful and that the defendant’s conduct was necessary to protect himself.” > > Surely part of that demonstration should include that he was fit to be carrying a gun that night? > > By his own admitted behaviour, he obviously very nearly wasn’t, as he alleges that it was almost taken off him, and it was only pure luck really that he’s here to tell his tale and Trayvon isn’t stewing in a jail awaiting trial for slaying the poor, conscientious neighbourhood watch guy who mentored little black infants. Yes if it were not for those pesky 4th and 5th amendments my job would be much easier. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/158 "2012-11-24T21:58:03Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes if it were not for those pesky 4th and 5th amendments my job would be much easier. Your job isn’t meant to be easy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/159 "2012-11-24T23:47:27Z")
But, you evidently (cool word, huh?) think that his job should not be hindered by those “pesky 4th and 5th amendments”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735/160 "2012-11-25T04:55:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If Z is making an affirmative defence He isn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/steophan-is-an-arrogant-and-amoral-prick/641735.md?page=9)